Rubber Banding / Speed Hacking - A Special (Unplanned) DevChat - 10/14/09 2am EST [Archive]

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Max

10-14-2009, 07:41 AM

An unplanned DevChat was held late Tuesday night (wed morning) to try and clarify and address some of the issues with regard to speed hacking and rubber banding, and its effect on the community. All users on the TC, IRC and Forums were invited to ask questions. The session ended up lasting almost 3 hours, and over 200 users spectated, with 24 users asking questions.

This has been posted for any who missed it, to try and clear up some of the rumors about speed hacking and SWGEmu's controversial response.

Max

10-14-2009, 07:42 AM

Intro
[5:06pm]Max:one at a time, i will give someone +v
[5:06pm]Max:in alphabetical order
[5:06pm]Max:you may ask your question and a follow up
[5:06pm]Max:please don't repeat questions
[5:07pm]Max:the log will be posted in devchat if you miss out
[5:07pm]Max:okay
[5:07pm]Max:the ONLY topic is rubber banding, any other questioners will be k/bd
[5:07pm]Max:speed hacking is under rubber banding

Ailan
[5:08pm]ailan:Hey Max, thanks for this,
[5:08pm]Max:sure
[5:08pm]ailan:I was wondering is the rubber banding caused by hacking or by something the dev team has implemented
[5:09pm]Max:it is NOT caused by hacking
[5:09pm]Max:it is our method of trying to stop hacking from running rampant on the server
[5:09pm]Max:when you rubber band, it is because the server thinks you could be speed hacking, or moving to ofast
[5:09pm]Max:it is an intended feature, however when it catches all of you, it isn't
[5:10pm]ailan:it has gotten to be so bad that it is almost unplayable, is there any way that wit can be stopped without ruining playability for the rest of us?
[5:10pm]Max:it is imprecise, yes. we do know that
[5:10pm]Max:we have worked on making it better, and explored other options
[5:10pm]Max:however there is only so much we can do in a day without losing focus on other development goals
[5:11pm]Max:sadly, there is nothing we can do quickly, like in the space of a restart, to make it better
[5:11pm]ailan:today with 800 people I don't think anyone could make it 5 feet without it, I was under the impression that speedhacking was caused by the number of packets sent to the server
[5:11pm]ailan:can packets sent be limited instead?
[5:11pm]ailan:sorry for the numerous questions thats all.
[5:11pm]Max:speed hacking is caused by the user making the client think you are going faster than you actually are, and then reporting that data to the server
[5:12pm]Max:the server itself is never actually hacked
[5:12pm]Max:it is merely a client "illusion" so to speak
[5:12pm]Max:so no, limiting packets, as we already do, would not help the problem

Anarchy
[5:12pm]anarchy:some have said speed hacking is causing the rubberbanding.. if this is true isn't there a way that they can make the emu by invitation only and if u catch someone hacking uninvite them or something like that just sad that ppl try and mess up a beautiful thing the rest of us shouldn't have to suffer for u guys trying to stop a couple ppl from hacking there has to be a better way
[5:13pm]Max:as said above, speed hacking is STOPPED by rubber banding
[5:13pm]Max:and we won't make the emu invitation only, that kind of thing is against open source values
[5:13pm]Max:anything else?
[5:13pm]anarchy:nah just wanna beable to play without taking 40 min to go 500 meters lol

Anima
[5:15pm]Max:go for it
[5:15pm]Q-AnimaRytak:I'm curious, before this new proection was implemented, how common was speed hacking on the test server and/or the old live servers?
[5:15pm]Max:I don't know exact figures about the live server, i'm guessing it was fairly common
[5:16pm]Max:for SWGEmu, however, there were, no exaggeration, dozens of players using speed hacks
[5:16pm]Max:I won't talk about specific players, of course, however there were enough that it was causing us concern
[5:16pm]Max:anything else?
[5:16pm]Q-AnimaRytak:Aside from the obvious cheating advantage, does speed hacking itself cause any server instabilities (Like Counter-Strike speedhacks)?
[5:17pm]Max:not that I myself know of

Artemis
[5:18pm]Q-Artemis:Hello
[5:18pm]Q-Artemis:I was just wondering if you can detect the players using the speed hack and what the penalty is. Also can you block the speed hack programs
[5:19pm]Q-Artemis:Like a firewall
[5:19pm]Max:speed hack programs are client side, so no its not possible to block them
[5:19pm]Max:since they affect only the player's computer
[5:19pm]Max:and then that client then "tricks" the server so to speak
[5:19pm]Max:so no it's not possible to firewall
[5:19pm]Q-Artemis:So that makes it hard to detect?
[5:19pm]Max:thats why the only way of detecting is to have a method like rubber banding
[5:20pm]Max:where we find players who are moving too fast and send them back
[5:20pm]Q-Artemis:Oh ok thanks Max that answered my questions.
[5:20pm]Max:If we detect speed hackers, or catch them, they are met with immediate temporary bans. Repeat offenders are perma-banned

Blind sniper
[5:21pm]Q-BlindSniper:ok
[5:21pm]Q-BlindSniper:now i know you cant remove rubberbanding
[5:21pm]Q-BlindSniper:but is there a way that it wont send us normal players back?
[5:22pm]Max:we're working to make it more precise, however that takes time and resources which we simply don't have at the moment
[5:22pm]Q-BlindSniper:ok
[5:22pm]Q-BlindSniper:i understand
[5:22pm]Q-BlindSniper:ty for your hard work
[5:22pm]Max:cheers

Bostwain
[5:22pm]Q-Bostwain:Considering **** was one of the known speedhackers, why was he "banned" temporarily but in fact jsut had his character name changed or given a whole new jedi? If I get warned for something can I have my name changed? I just dont understand why someone can be caught speed hacking while ghosted by a staff member and recieve no punishment...
[5:23pm]Max:i can't discuss individual players or associations
[5:23pm]Q-Bostwain:Okay
[5:23pm]Max:it would be unethical
[5:23pm]Q-Bostwain:Hold on one second.
[5:23pm]Max:would you like to rephrase the question?
[5:23pm]Q-Bostwain:yes
[5:23pm]Max:please be swift
[5:23pm]Q-Bostwain:Considering ***** was one of the known speedhackers, why was he "banned" temporarily but in fact jsut had his character name changed or given a whole new jedi? If I get warned for something can I have my name changed? I just dont understand why someone can be caught speed hacking while ghosted by a staff member and recieve no punishment...
[5:23pm]Max:i can't discuss individual players or associations

Bowen
[5:25pm]Q-bowen:If speedhacks aren't causing any problems to the server, and rubberbanding is to the player base..why is this the better of two evils? how will this effect burst run and vehicles / mounts when their added? Lastly, is it possible to remove this and prefect the program on a dumb server before pushed "live"?
[5:25pm]Max:good questions
[5:26pm]Q-bowen:lol
[5:26pm]Max:yes it is possible to run it on a dummy server, however we feel it more important to protect the player base from speed hack griefing too
[5:26pm]Max:its not a "development or nothing" approach
[5:26pm]Max:speed hacking causes serious practical problems
[5:27pm]Max:think of the implications of a prospective jedi speed hacking?
[5:27pm]Max:or a pvp player?
[5:27pm]Q-bowen:to interupt you there, in order to protect us from speed hacking grief cause I don't pvp
[5:27pm]Q-bowen:your hurting every to include hte pve playerbase
[5:27pm]Q-bowen:no offense but by listening to the minority griefs you've effected everyone for the worse
[5:27pm]Q-bowen:that's what Sony would have done
[5:27pm]Q-bowen:and i don't mean any disrespect by saying that
[5:28pm]Max:thats fine
[5:28pm]Q-bowen:i'm done, thank you for your time
[5:28pm]Q-bowen:and your efforts in this : )
[5:28pm]Max:i'll answer you
[5:29pm]Max:its not easy to try and weigh up what is best for the whole player base, i'll admit
[5:29pm]Max:i personally believe that stopping exploiters and hackers is really important
[5:29pm]Max:and i respect difference of opinion in that case
[5:30pm]Q-bowen:but is stopping everyone at everything equaly or more important?
[5:30pm]Max:obviously we don't intend for as many users as there are being affected
[5:30pm]Max:and we plan to improve the system
[5:30pm]Max:we considered having possible hackers disconnected instead of r-banded
[5:30pm]Max:would you find that more annoying?
[5:31pm]Max:so you would d/c more instead of rubber banding more?
[5:31pm]Q-bowen:I agree that something should always be done to correct problems to but quote "the girl next door" is the Juice worth the sqeeze?
[5:31pm]Q-bowen:I mean at least we were able to activly test, run missions and persue a point in the game
[5:31pm]Max:if it means better juice for breakfast next monday, yes
[5:31pm]Q-bowen:the juice would be stale, because the good parts would have left in the mean time
[5:32pm]Q-bowen:: /
[5:32pm]Q-bowen:lol
[5:32pm]Max:valid points
[5:32pm]Q-bowen:okay, i'll let you move on : )
[5:32pm]Max:I hope I don't come across as the font of all knowledge, but no one is
[5:32pm]Q-bowen:thanks aigan
[5:32pm]Q-bowen:I understand
[5:33pm]Max:thanks for showing some alternatives
[5:33pm]Q-bowen:np

cyrix
[5:33pm]Q-Cyrix:With regards to detection of speed hackers, I'm wondering with the swg launcher that we have to open first before loading SWG (updates, etc) is there a way to see to make it scan/search to see if something has been tampered or added?
[5:34pm]Max:it is possible, yes, and its on the table for the future
[5:34pm]Q-Cyrix:ok cool, thats all i have
[5:34pm]Max:but right this second we don't have any tools in place to do that
[5:34pm]Max:but when the LPE is eventually upgraded, sure
[5:34pm]Q-Cyrix:thanks you guys rock
[5:34pm]Max:cheers

eenu
[5:35pm]Q-Eenu:how will this affect vehicles/mounts when they're implemented...do you plan to have an improved system by then?
[5:35pm]Max:yes
[5:35pm]Max:vehicles are able to be speed hacked too though
[5:35pm]Q-Eenu:ok thanks
[5:36pm]Max:sure

Ernest
[5:36pm]Q-Ernest:If speed hacking is so detrimental to the server stability, balance, and brings along all the problems it does why is the punishment only a temporary ban? It seems to be just a slap on the wrist when it is such a big problem that the COMMUNITY as a whole thinks should be given a more serious punishment. That leads me into another question, will we, as the player base, have any say in how things are run?
[5:36pm]Q-Ernest:Kinda broad.
[5:36pm]Q-Ernest:Sorry
[5:36pm]Max:this questions raises a much bigger debate
[5:37pm]Max:1) how harsh is harsh?
[5:37pm]Max:and 2) how much say should a player have in over all server management?
[5:37pm]Max:for #1, I can only say that many people quote a period of SWGEmu's history as being nazi-like and draconian
[5:37pm]Max:we don't want to go back to bans for every thing
[5:38pm]Max:we have to have levels of removal to allow people to reconsider their own actions
[5:38pm]Q-Ernest:Forum rules
[5:38pm]Q-Ernest:Seem a bit different than server rules.
[5:38pm]Max:people need to be given the benefit of the doubt
[5:39pm]Max:as for if the players will be given a say, not in the running of our TC, no
[5:39pm]Q-Ernest:I see
[5:39pm]Max:it's run to best benefit and facilitate testing in an enjoyable way
[5:39pm]Q-Ernest:I understand that.
[5:39pm]Q-Ernest:That's pretty much it I guess.
[5:40pm]Max:SC is outside the scope of this discussion
[5:40pm]Max:okay
[5:40pm]Max:thanks
[5:40pm]Q-Ernest:Since others have questions.

five9
[5:40pm]Q-five9:hi
[5:40pm]Q-five9:you stated that "as said above, speed hacking is STOPPED by rubber banding" and...
[5:40pm]Q-five9:"where we find players who are moving too fast and send them back"
[5:40pm]Q-five9:and "think of the implications of a prospective jedi speed hacking?"
[5:41pm]Q-five9:this rubberbanding is affecting us all
[5:41pm]Q-five9:and stopping us all
[5:41pm]Max:I know
[5:41pm]Q-five9:without names and associations,
[5:41pm]Q-five9:it would appear that a goal can be reached faster even with a few day ban
[5:41pm]Q-five9:then doing so legit thus it becomes a reward timewise
[5:42pm]Q-five9:weill we be seeing a slightly heavier ban on cheaters
[5:42pm]Q-five9:or is the cheater path to be continued to be rewarded
[5:42pm]Q-five9:while others who unlocked legit cannot play due to other bugs
[5:42pm]Q-five9:thanks
[5:42pm]Max:its obvious how many problems this is causing
[5:42pm] Chris_halo_boss334 left the chat room. (Quit: Chris_halo_boss334)
[5:43pm]Max:in that consideration, hackers and such are being taken much more seriously
[5:43pm]Max:we are still persuing at least one "warning ban" so to speak, however that could be weeks long
[5:43pm]Q-five9:the community is on the verge of munity over what is a reward based on time spent legit, to time spent cheating +temp ban
[5:43pm]Max:we aren't going to jump straight to perma from a first time offender
[5:44pm]Q-five9:nope and thats understood
[5:44pm]Q-five9:but temp ban plus cheating still cuts the time in half
[5:44pm]Q-five9:thats the motive for them, kill the motive u kill half the problem
[5:44pm]Q-five9:thats all
[5:44pm]Max:with the anti-hack on, it prevents that from being a problem
[5:44pm]Q-five9:prevents us all
[5:44pm]Max:as in, a recurrent problem
[5:44pm]Max:thats the weigh up
[5:44pm]Q-five9:other games can stop client side hooks
[5:45pm]Max:other games aren't using a pre-made client
[5:45pm]Q-five9:the ban has to stop the motive and in this case its just not there
[5:46pm]Max:fair argument, except that no one will be banned for speed hacking when they can't speed hack

Forked
[5:46pm]Q-Forked:Thanks, Max. My question is a bit on the technical side, and I don't know if you can answer this. In the packet structure between client and server, is there no date/time field for sequencing the communication as well as accommodating lag in the communication? Communication lag seems to increase the rubber banding, which is why I ask.
[5:47pm]Max:as far as i know there isn't a timestamp on packets, no
[5:48pm]Q-Forked:ok, then that's all my questions
[5:48pm]Max:however i won't pretend to be any kind of knowledgeable entity on the subject
[5:48pm]Max:sure thing
[5:48pm]Max:post it on the open dev forum if you're still interested
[5:48pm]Q-Forked:that I am
[5:48pm]Max:i can have it followed up
[5:48pm]Max:thanks

Grill
[5:48pm]q-Grill:Looking forward is there any meet in the middle ideas to help players such as setting the anti hack program on intervals to run every other hour or something or possibly giving us a shorter cooldown on burst run (even tho Burst run would prob cause more rubberbanding, im unsure)? (just random ideams)anything that may help temporarily get through this to keep things productive depending on how long we will have to wait for a fix? Also what is
[5:49pm]Max:missed half your message there
[5:49pm]Max:post the rest after "Also"
[5:49pm]q-Grill:also what is the priority on this
[5:49pm]Max:the priority on this is medium-high
[5:49pm]Max:its not top priority, but its certainly on the mind
[5:50pm]Max:running the anti-hack on a interval probably won't work, unfortunately
[5:50pm]Max:since that won't stop people who are hacking for the other 59 minutes of the hour
[5:51pm]q-Grill:hmm maybe keeping it random and at least having it slow them down wthout having people complain
[5:51pm]Max:I see the idea, however I personally think that improving a full-time system is the best option
[5:52pm]Max:open to conjecture, of course
[5:52pm]q-Grill:agreed, hopefully it wont take too terribly long
[5:52pm]Max:i hope so too
[5:52pm]Max:cheers

hammy
[5:52pm]Q-Hammy:Speedhacking and the rubberbanding issue caused by the anti-speed hacking measure are serious matter affecting participating players on TC: Nova. As previously stated, this cannot be fixed overnight and creating a solution takes time and people. Because of the server-wide magnitude, How does this impact the team's development projects such as the eventual release of the OR? Thank you and that is all.
[5:53pm]Max:well stated, thank you
[5:53pm]Max:at this stage it is not a hindrance to the other development milestones
[5:54pm]Max:however, if we were to dedicate more resources, it would most definitely
[5:54pm]Max:if we seem reluctant to change the current system that is why, out of any of the reasons
[5:54pm]Max:TheAnswer is the top dog when it comes to the anti-hack, and he is also one of the driving forces of the OR
[5:55pm]Max:in the scheme of things, the OR unfortunately does take precedence
[5:55pm]Max:at this stage though, it is not affecting the OR's development
[5:55pm]Max:thanks

Hoz
[5:55pm]Q-Hoz:Was the anti-speed hacking tool that is causing this rubber banding on server side or is it client side? Is there anyway in making a checksum type program like other mmos with a temp kick instead of the rubberband? And what else have you/others looked into besides this tool
[5:56pm]Max:this tool is server side
[5:56pm]Max:it is impossible at this stage to enforce a client-side prevention due to the fact that we didn't make the client
[5:56pm]Max:and we can't enforce the patching of such a tool
[5:56pm]Max:however, we have looked into kicks as opposed to rubber bands
[5:57pm]Max:however it would be just as sensitive as the rubber bands, and would cause a lot of "collateral kicks"
[5:57pm]Max:if that makes sense
[5:57pm]Q-Hoz:Why can't you enforcec a patch?
[5:57pm]Max:not everyone uses the LPE
[5:57pm]Max:and at this stage, that would be the only reliable distribution method
[5:58pm]Max:it would be limiting on players if we were to force everyone to use the LPE - it simply doesn't work for some people
[5:58pm]Max:lastly, client mods are not always effective or stable
[5:58pm]Q-Hoz:Ok thank you
[5:58pm]Max:we don't know what long term effects patching in such a system could have on client stability
[5:58pm]Max:cheers
[5:59pm] Bost joined the chat room.
[5:59pm]Max:we have also looked into logging as well as a way of stopping hackers, however we determined it would take too much time and people to sort though logs of that size

iGasmask
[5:59pm]Q-iGasmask:What is the Emu doing to prevent hacking? This is an amature project so it's most likely going to be rather easy to exploit. I would assume the speed hacking was probably done by an amature with CE or something. So are you guys prepared for more experienced hackers? Any plans for a team for the sole purpose of hack prevention? I feel the bigger problem is being overlooked here. A few people can ruin the game for all of us.
[5:59pm]Q-iGasmask:Also I'd like to touch on teh subject of temp bans
[5:59pm]Max:sure
[6:00pm]Q-iGasmask:I hacked for many years andi can tell you temp bans are a joke. Especially to someone who got jedi because of the hacks.
[6:01pm]Q-iGasmask:You should delete their character as well as a temp ban, if not just perma ban. If you tell me "We're going to temp ban before we perma ban" I think "Okay I'll speed hack put a huge dent in my goal if not complete it and hack til I'm caught"
[6:02pm]Max:we don't have the tools just yet to easily delete characters
[6:02pm]Max:also there's the issue of false accusations
[6:02pm]Max:we're not always right
[6:02pm]Q-iGasmask:Do you have the tools to monitor a player yet?
[6:02pm]Max:to a degree
[6:03pm]Q-iGasmask:Haha I'm getting a ton of PMs here
[6:03pm]Max:with the OR will come more in depth and workable logging methods
[6:03pm]Max:firstly, the ability to "hack" in the context we're talking is really limited to what you can trick the client into thinking. you can't actually change the true weapon stats of a weapon for example, only make the client think they are different
[6:03pm]Max:core3 as a server will be, and already is, extremely resilient to hacking from outside the client
[6:04pm]Q-iGasmask:Well I think the issue on all of our minds here is Jedi
[6:05pm]Q-iGasmask:I mean I could log on in off peak hours and get my all my POIs then get a temp ban
[6:05pm]Q-iGasmask:Saved me hours and now I can just play another game for the days I'm banned
[6:05pm]Max:fair enough
[6:06pm]Q-iGasmask:All I'm saying is hacking should be very high priority in development and even after the emu is finished
[6:06pm]Max:in the future, when we have more tools and better anti-hacking programs, we'll definitely revise our process
[6:06pm]Max:thanks
[6:06pm]Q-iGasmask:Okay, that's all I have to say. Thanks for your time and I hope this issue is taken seriously.

Ladywolf
[6:07pm]Q-Ladywolf:I for one am not thinking atm of jedi. I am thinking of getting to my mission before it dissapears.A wookie player blew by me on naboo seemly unaffected. So Would it help issues if all run speed was increased as an interum messure. I hope I don't sound stupid. Great work in anycase!!
[6:08pm]Max:i really don't understand it well enough to say how some are badly affected and others aren't
[6:08pm]Max:i will talk to TA tonight about trying to do a quick "de-sensitize" on the anti hack
[6:09pm]Q-Ladywolf:well I num lock run a great deal. is that affecting me
[6:09pm]Max:since it does seem to be pretty bad
[6:09pm]Max:no
[6:09pm]Q-Ladywolf:TY

miller
[6:09pm]Q-miller:As you stated Max, you "yourself" did not know of any server instabilities caused by the speed hackers and also said they would be dealt with swiftly if caught with a warning and then a permaban. With that being said why not just take out the anti-hack and give the banhammer where it needs to be swung?. I would say this should be a top priority because now it IS causing server instabilities player side and making it i
[6:10pm]Q-miller:sorry if anything was asked but I have a newborn and missed some
[6:10pm]Max:sure
[6:11pm]Max:simply because we can't catch everyone
[6:11pm]Max:we don't have the tools in place to monitor people closely enough, nor do we currently have the resources to do so
[6:11pm]Q-miller:ok, with that being said perhaps allow a little more travel before anti hack kicks in
[6:11pm]Q-miller:cause I know lagg is a factor with the software correct?
[6:11pm] anarchy left the chat room.
[6:12pm]Max:yeah as i said i'm going to talk to TA tonight about making it less sensitive
[6:12pm]Max:depends what kind of lag
[6:12pm]Max:FPS lag, where the client stutters or freezes, is 100% your computer side
[6:13pm]Max:chat lag, where you say something and it doesn't show up for a few seconds, is server side
[6:13pm]Max:important distinction to make
[6:13pm]Q-miller:haha I have NO PROB there I can run this game with my microwave
[6:13pm]Q-miller:thats all though thanks
[6:13pm]Max:np

nee2earth
[6:13pm]Q-nee2earth:Hi Max, thanks...ok so:
[6:13pm]Q-nee2earth:First: imo, PROVEN speed-hacking cheaters should be 2018perma-banned2019 and their characters 2018deleted2019 . Period. 2013 Now onto questions: 1) Is it possible to get access to one of the original SWG pre-cu Devs to ask advice/info on how best to deal with 2018speed-hacking2019 ? It just seems like you guys over-whelmed abit, on the technical side I mean (btw: I2019m not blaming u at all, I fully understand you2019re
[6:15pm]Max:1) we haven't had any contact with pre-cu devs, however if the chance comes up, we'd have to look at it in that context
[6:15pm]Max:i'm sure there would be mixed feelings
[6:15pm]Max:i don't know to be honest
[6:15pm]Q-nee2earth:(i'll reply after your done with 2) )
[6:16pm]Max:2) i'm not a technical wizard, I'm a communicator, so if it seems like I'm overwhelmed, adept observation
[6:16pm]Q-nee2earth:./grin, np
[6:16pm]Max:however we have some people who i can profess are geniuses, and I would not say that we are in any way overwhelmed in that regard
[6:17pm]Q-nee2earth:let me know when ur done so i can reply respectfully
[6:17pm]Q-nee2earth:ah ok, np good to know
[6:17pm]Max:people like Oru our head developer, TheAnswer, Ramsey, Kyle cRush
[6:17pm]Max:they're all industry grade developers
[6:17pm]Max:please proceed
[6:17pm]Q-nee2earth:ok cool, good to know that info
[6:17pm]Q-nee2earth:ok regarding my 1)
[6:17pm]Max:two of our devs actually work as industry professionals, i won't go into specifics though for obvious reasons
[6:18pm]Q-nee2earth:Hypothetically, if someone were able to reach-out to the pre-cu ORIGINAL devs, to help you guys, how wud someone facilitate that meeting to You if someone cud set it up?
[6:19pm]Max:the best thing to do if you had such an offer would to be in touch with our project manager, Ramsey. You can always contact me and I will forward things on too.
[6:19pm]Q-nee2earth:Ok, how wud one get in touch with You or Ramsey? through email?
[6:19pm]Max:sure. max@swgemu.com and ramsey@swgemu.com respectively, as well as forum PMs
[6:20pm]Max:IRC pm's are kinda unreliable
[6:20pm]Q-nee2earth:and lastly, regarding my 2) What else can we the player-testers do to help fix this rubber-banding issue, if anything?
[6:20pm]Max:be very patient
[6:20pm]Max:and cut us some slack
[6:20pm]Q-nee2earth:np i do that already lol...anyways, next person...thanks for ur time everyone../bow
[6:21pm]Max:I don't want to lay blame, however when people on the forums expect that we can / will do something just because they ask for it, it does make us all quite down
[6:21pm]Q-nee2earth:understood..thx for ur time../bow
[6:21pm]Max:cheers

panda
[6:22pm]Q-panda:Is it safe to say that nearly every person who has unlocked in such a short period of time used speedhacks in order to do so
[6:22pm]Max:no
[6:22pm]Max:its not
[[6:22pm]Q-panda:Alright
[6:22pm]Q-panda:and
[6:22pm]Q-panda:for the ones who did use hacks to do it
[6:22pm]Q-panda:shouldnt they be forced to start over
[6:23pm]Max:well
[6:23pm]Max:at this stage, it is too late to turn around and re-punish such a user
[6:24pm]Max:however, I do recognise your point
[6:24pm]Q-panda:All Im saying is, bans are one thing and thats fine for some cheating in pvp or lootwhoring.
[6:24pm]Max:and trust me that it will be a major point of discussion for the GMs
[6:24pm]Q-panda:but when you got your toon through a way that is totally against rules and forcing the entire community to suffer
[6:24pm]Q-panda:why should you be allowed to keep that toon
[6:25pm]Max:i can't answer that question
[6:25pm]Max:unfortunately
[6:25pm]Q-panda:Just thought it should be brought up.
[6:25pm]Q-panda:thats all I got
[6:25pm]Max:it is, trust me
[6:26pm]Max:its a never ending discussion
[6:26pm]Q-panda:Well
[6:26pm]Q-panda:can I ask another?
[6:26pm]Max:sure
[6:27pm]Q-panda:the anti hack system measures distance to determine if a person is speedhacking
[6:27pm]Q-panda:and moves them back if it determines they have gone too far in a given period of time?
[6:27pm]Q-panda:Would it be possibly to do that on a larger scale that wouldnt effect the average user traveling on foot and getting rubberbanded every 10m
[6:28pm]Max:Unfortunately I don't know enough about it to answer that 100%
[6:28pm]Q-panda:alrighty.
[6:28pm]Max:sorry

ravenlock
[6:30pm]Q-Ravenlock:I appreciate the work and effort going into making this acceptable on your end. Thanks for being our messenger
[6:30pm]Q-Ravenlock:First, is there anything we as a playerbase can do to make this easier on your end?
[6:30pm]Q-Ravenlock:Second, I've been holding back from helping on the development end until after the OR, but is this something that having more eyes or manpower could help out with in the Open-(Source/Dev) area?
[6:31pm]Q-Ravenlock:On a related note, is this intended to be an engine change or specific to SWG, and as such will it be configurable by the server communities?
[6:31pm]Max:it is a core3 specific function
[6:33pm]Max:sorry i don't want to touch on non-rubber band q's
[6:33pm]Max:nothing personal
[6:33pm]Max:we can talk later
[6:33pm]Max:anything else?
[6:33pm]Q-Ravenlock:That's fine, understandable.
[6:33pm]Q-Ravenlock:Nope
[6:33pm]Max:cheers

reverb
[6:34pm]Q-Reverb:Since some people as you state can't use the LPE why not implement a client side patch and release it also in a .EXE format installer that will patch the SWGEMU client folder. So that all users who can't use the launcher can still get the necessary patch. I would say that 90% of the community would rather deal with more testing with a client side checksum patch that would deal with the anti cheat then having to deal with this serve
[6:34pm]Q-Reverb:And touching on that part I know a guy willing to do all this for you guys.
[6:37pm]Q-Reverb:Then 2nd. Since this is such a obvious strong statement on all users. Why not make the server be ZERO tolerance for hackers. If caught beyond a reasonable doubt that they will be banned. No questions no appeals. This is the only way I have ever seen a private server run properly that has been of any success.
[6:39pm]Max:its hard
[6:39pm]Max:its a real debate, and one i don't have a simple answer for
[6:39pm]Q-Reverb:No problem
[6:40pm]Max:we don't want to alienate anyone from the program
[6:40pm]Q-Reverb:Sometimes its better to do so as a whole for the community to run smoother.
[6:40pm]Q-Reverb:Punish the few to better the experience for the masses
[6:40pm]Q-Reverb:If the people are truly interested in the project they will eventually stop hacking.
[6:41pm]Q-Reverb:after 2-3 bans a hacker will become a little less likely to try
[6:41pm]Max:thats the thing though
[6:42pm]Max:the people who are hacking aren't interested in the project
[6:42pm]Max:they want to have fun and stuff around
[6:42pm]Q-Reverb:more reason to be rid of them.
[6:42pm]Q-Reverb:hence the zero tolerance
[6:43pm]Max:mmm
[6:43pm]Q-Reverb:im blunt sorry
[6:43pm]Max:no problem
[6:43pm]Max:its a really really hard question / topic

pgsparky

10-14-2009, 08:03 AM

Bostwain
Quote:
[5:22pm]Q-Bostwain:Considering **** was one of the known speedhackers, why was he "banned" temporarily but in fact jsut had his character name changed or given a whole new jedi? If I get warned for something can I have my name changed? I just dont understand why someone can be caught speed hacking while ghosted by a staff member and recieve no punishment...
[5:23pm]Max:i can't discuss individual players or associations
[5:23pm]Q-Bostwain:Okay
[5:23pm]Max:it would be unethical
[5:23pm]Q-Bostwain:Hold on one second.
[5:23pm]Max:would you like to rephrase the question?
[5:23pm]Q-Bostwain:yes
[5:23pm]Max:please be swift
[5:23pm]Q-Bostwain:Considering ***** was one of the known speedhackers, why was he "banned" temporarily but in fact jsut had his character name changed or given a whole new jedi? If I get warned for something can I have my name changed? I just dont understand why someone can be caught speed hacking while ghosted by a staff member and recieve no punishment...
[5:23pm]Max:i can't discuss individual players or associations

Epic Fail.

jermat

10-14-2009, 08:17 AM

wow this is just amazing, the other day i had a a guy hackusate me saying i used a item generator for my loot. person are smart people are stupid

Keono

10-14-2009, 08:35 AM

[6:34pm]Q-Reverb:Since some people as you state can't use the LPE why not implement a client side patch and release it also in a .EXE format installer that will patch the SWGEMU client folder. So that all users who can't use the launcher can still get the necessary patch. I would say that 90% of the community would rather deal with more testing with a client side checksum patch that would deal with the anti cheat then having to deal with this serve
[6:34pm]Q-Reverb:And touching on that part I know a guy willing to do all this for you guys.
[6:37pm]Q-Reverb:Then 2nd. Since this is such a obvious strong statement on all users. Why not make the server be ZERO tolerance for hackers. If caught beyond a reasonable doubt that they will be banned. No questions no appeals. This is the only way I have ever seen a private server run properly that has been of any success.
[6:39pm]Max:its hard
[6:39pm]Max:its a real debate, and one i don't have a simple answer for
[6:39pm]Q-Reverb:No problem
[6:40pm]Max:we don't want to alienate anyone from the program
[6:40pm]Q-Reverb:Sometimes its better to do so as a whole for the community to run smoother.
[6:40pm]Q-Reverb:Punish the few to better the experience for the masses
[6:40pm]Q-Reverb:If the people are truly interested in the project they will eventually stop hacking.
[6:41pm]Q-Reverb:after 2-3 bans a hacker will become a little less likely to try
[6:41pm]Max:thats the thing though
[6:42pm]Max:the people who are hacking aren't interested in the project
[6:42pm]Max:they want to have fun and stuff around
[6:42pm]Q-Reverb:more reason to be rid of them.
[6:42pm]Q-Reverb:hence the zero tolerance
[6:43pm]Max:mmm
[6:43pm]Q-Reverb:im blunt sorry
[6:43pm]Max:no problem
[6:43pm]Max:its a really really hard question / topic

^^ this. While i would be against perma bans with no warning on a live server. This is a test server anyone who is hacking a test server needs to be banned then when SC hits then can play there since they don't want to test. I think you guys need to make hacking perma, add an appeal section to the forums, and post it on LPE so everyone knows it's a insta perma ban.

lothos

10-14-2009, 08:43 AM

I have been doing comparisons with friends that play in different regions with different net speeds and wondered if the resources of a persons PC affected how bad they rubber banded.

For example, I run on Vista 64 with a dual core 3.2 and 4g of ram and an nvidia 8800gts 512mb. On 16mbps cable out of Detroit. ( server is physically in chicago right? ) I have basically every option on max full screen and I average 80-85% bounce back for movement forward.

My friends typically are on machines about 20% behind mine on cable half as fast and they get next to no rubber banding.

I play my crafter on my laptop as well and sufffer maybe half the rubber banding. Winxp 2gb ram, 512mb radeon x1250.

Just thought I would throw that out there if folks wanted to speculate % to machine power.

Reverb

10-14-2009, 09:06 AM

The later half was answered on vent. Most of the hard questions hit max on the vent server AFTER he officially closed the dev chat on IRC

fixit6

10-14-2009, 09:21 AM

lothos

10-14-2009, 09:29 AM

I use highest teir cable on a fairly decent rig...get rubberband pretty bad at times. So essentially, the better your internet connection/computer...the worse it is...? Ugh. Lame.

that would seem the case if the check is such that the server only gets updated with speed/position every few ticks and your machine is processing it smoothly without hiccups. Not sure what is possible to adjust though, updating client to server responses for position, client side constant position calibration, or additional position data from server to client. I would think any lessening of the tool to accommodate faster machines would simply make the speed hack more possible on lesser machines.

GenerixBanshee

10-14-2009, 09:30 AM

Ok - if for example those cheating could be identified - rather than banning them permanently (as it seems you don't want to do)...wouldn't it be possible to just ban that particular user login account - but allow them to reregister with the same email (i.e. they lose their toons they cheated with - thus removing any benefit of cheating)

Alternatively I have seen some forums now issue a £5 activation charge - another alternative would be for those caught cheating a ban would be in place until they reactivated their account at a cost of £5 (a time). this would help pay the bills too.

Just my thoughts.

Darkwing

10-14-2009, 10:23 AM

[5:46pm]Q-Forked:Thanks, Max. My question is a bit on the technical side, and I don't know if you can answer this. In the packet structure between client and server, is there no date/time field for sequencing the communication as well as accommodating lag in the communication? Communication lag seems to increase the rubber banding, which is why I ask.
[5:47pm]Max:as far as i know there isn't a timestamp on packets, no
[5:48pm]Q-Forked:ok, then that's all my questions
[5:48pm]Max:however i won't pretend to be any kind of knowledgeable entity on the subject
[5:48pm]Max:sure thing
[5:48pm]Max:post it on the open dev forum if you're still interested
[5:48pm]Q-Forked:that I am
[5:48pm]Max:i can have it followed up
[5:48pm]Max:thanks

I seem to recall that SOE ran chat on a seperate server (I remember it being down a few times, you could still play, just not chat).
Maybe running chat seperate could help a bit with the problem?
It might also lower lag in general.
Ofcourse it would require a seperate server for it, so it may not be possible at the moment.

Emokho

10-14-2009, 11:12 AM

I don't believe it has too much to do with the computer running the game on, I'm useing a Dell I bought in 2001 and rubber banding like crazy. I have no idea what the stats on the computer are anymore, I did buy it as a gameing computer back then and it was the best one in the barracks at 1st Radio Batallion at the time but I can't play alot of games on it that have come out in the past 2 or 3 years. I've upgraded the RAM from 250meg to 1 gig recently and put in a slightly newer video card but it's not seeming to effect any other games like KOTOR 1 and 2.

I am wondering though if terrain negotiation has any effect on the distance check as my character seemd to rubberband more as I progressed up the exploration tree in scout, esecialy in mountionous areas. Now it's to the point where I have to run up to 63 meters of a target, wait 10 seconds, run back to 63 meters from 112, wait a few seconds, and do that again before engageing the target. But I digress, if the server is checking the characters movement in a given amount of time is it also takeing into consideration the terrain negotiation of the character or assumeing that the character is hacked when it's actualy functioning properly?

XBitX

10-14-2009, 11:27 AM

I seem to recall that SOE ran chat on a seperate server (I remember it being down a few times, you could still play, just not chat).
Maybe running chat seperate could help a bit with the problem?
It might also lower lag in general.
Ofcourse it would require a seperate server for it, so it may not be possible at the moment.

That is a great idea actually.

The only problem as Max has stated, is that there is just a lack of resources to do so.

From what I got, TheAnswer is working on the Anti-Speed Hack. But he's also the OR Head.

Plus, actual servers are very expensive unless they had their own... I think they're buying their servers from a server farm right now...

These are the problems of a project that's not being backed by corperate money.

I'm sure they'll get a happy medium soon. I have faith in our developers.

kastle7

10-14-2009, 12:30 PM

While I agree in spirit with those calling for a perma-ban if hackers are caught, I think some are missing the point. It seems just about everyone is rubberbanding which means the anti-hack program "thinks" we are speed hacking. So, if it looks like we are hacking, they would perma-ban anyone that is rubberbanding (last night it was so bad my toon looked like he was break dancing). Not a workable solution. Same problem with disconnecting people, do you really want to get kicked every time you would have rubberbanded. I don't, I spend enough time trying to connect as it is. I think the only thing right now is possibly adjusting the sensitivity a bit as Max said he would speak to TA about.

guru42101

10-14-2009, 01:15 PM

I think the the calculations used to decide if someone is going to fast needs to be rethought. Do the packets contain a timestamp? If so, you could calculate the maximum expected movement distance, given their stats / mounts within the time between the current and previous (or x-th back in the history if you want to skip some) packet. Of course that may be what you're already doing and your estimated travel distance per time unit is too low.

Also, I personally recommend commenting out the section that causes rubber banding and change it to first logging the suspicious activity (including the amount of discrepancy) and second alerting (via chat) the user that the server has detected them going faster than they should. That should let you fine tune your calculations without ruining the playability of the game. It also should allow you to see the cheaters and ban them, just because they can't speed hack doesn't mean they won't just do something else.

As is currently I cannot grab 2 missions from the terminal and always complete them both. It simply takes to long to run. And I've nearly died several times from mobs bigger than I that I cannot run away from.

k0m4g1rl

10-14-2009, 02:13 PM

I've had really bad rubberbanding in Mos Eisley and Mos Entha. Right now I'm in Yavin 4, and so far not a bit of rubberbanding.

The more Players around, the more rubberbanding, the more server-sided the lag is, the more rubberbanding... If you stop every few feet, wait a sec and run on, no rubberbanding at all.

Though it seems to me as if it got better since yesterday.

I'm running Windows 7, my PC lags client-side most of the time, still had the worst rubberbanding when server lagged.

Emokho

10-14-2009, 03:53 PM

It's always been worse with server lag in every game it's ever happend in. So yeah, while the server is already auto rubber banding us mabey people can keep the random spacial spam where it belongs, in Coronet.

zabrakwith

10-14-2009, 04:03 PM

Bowen- Great questions and I love "The girl Next Door" reference :)

Max- When you're talking about the overall playability of the TC and how it affects the community, I don't think people will get riled up over banning these people. Sure, at one time swgemu had its issues with dictator-type rules and attitudes, but those days are long in the past. The team is so much more professional and business like, and if this were a business those exploiters would be punished. This is NOT the time to be nice about things. It is really affecting everyone and most people I know are calling for severe action against these people. Bring out that iron fist! :)

Labyrinth

10-14-2009, 04:13 PM

zabrakwith

10-14-2009, 05:06 PM

Yeah, except that "bringing out the iron fist" right now would be like going on a witch hunt or declaring a "war on terrorism."

Well, the emu team has a right to protect the emu from evil-doers(TM).

Sorry, I had to say it.

Master Chief

10-14-2009, 05:27 PM

Just so long as they don't confuse evil for major issues (i.e. rubber-banding). I admit that the iron fist is always an option, sometimes actually an appropriate one.

But I don't know why I can't post in the Bug Discussion thread.

Kayliaah

10-14-2009, 08:29 PM

Great job Max trying to answer all these questions, that looked like a huge unplanned Devchat.

zomick

10-14-2009, 09:57 PM

Great job Max, cleared some of my questions there. But on a side not, I say we should(we as in the community) get the names of said hackers so we can ridicule and basically online castrate these A-holes. You have my full faith you'll get a happy medium

Deharak

10-14-2009, 10:40 PM

Somebody Quote mine! It was the ****! iGasmask

Yhor

10-15-2009, 01:57 AM

I'm just curious why the thread on this subject with the poll was deleted (yes, it was only moved to a private section, but to most, it equates to deletion). The threads with real garbage only get locked, but threads that have generally civil conversations and thought out responses get moved to private viewing.

Great job of emulating SOE.

And don't get me wrong, I have the highest admiration for what has been done to get PreCU back. I enjoy gaming again (well, when I can do something other than just play professions that stand still) and I look forward to having the satisfaction I had while playing in live servers. I offer a most sincere congratulations on the progress thus far.:D

I just think community relations here are much like they were with SOE... anything said that isn't what -The Team- wants to hear gets locked or deleted, while trolls and hackers get a slap on the wrist with a /wink /wink, /nudge /nudge. I am genuinely baffled by 1/2 of what I see in regards to moderation. I will say it has gotten better over the past few months, but it still has those -really?- moments.

Thanks for listening, and the work on the Emu.
~Yhor

Max

10-15-2009, 02:13 AM

Yhor

10-15-2009, 02:33 AM

I spoke with the OP and we agreed that we would move the thread pending some other things going on. You will see it has since been replaced.

Maybe I just need sleep. I've been exposed to a lot of SOE memories lately. SOE Emails of epic failure, a "Senator" dredging up the whole "Classic Servers" crap, defending SWGEmu to a group of friends/acquaintances...

I do see you guys are trying, and that improvements have been made. I apologize if I came across a little bitter.

Thanks for the restoration.:)

Wint3rz

10-15-2009, 05:09 AM

Omfg i cant believe people are starting to speed hack , out of all the games they can hack they choose Swg as another place to do so :(:(:(:(:(:(:(

You hackers should drop dead imo

Ekaika

10-15-2009, 05:33 AM

I think I speak for everyone when I say, thank Vader you're back, Max.

Emokho

10-15-2009, 01:13 PM

Well guys, ya know in all honesty this being a test center shouldn't people be able to test their hacks too? What good would it do the hakers to try untested hacks when the EMU goes live when there's a perfectly good and well marked testing groung right here?

if you think I'm serious here move your keyboard and slam your head into the desk as hard as you can. I realy think anyone who cheats at a game you cannot win is the saddest form of cheater there is.

Noraa

10-15-2009, 02:45 PM

Max Rocks!

Galpar

10-15-2009, 03:08 PM

I just want to make sure I fully understand this.
So my sudden rubberbanding is being caused by a attempt to stop a speed hacker.
But, I am rubberbanding even if I try walking.
This is being cause by my internet connection and computer?
So, i may be accused of speed hacking because of that?

Just want to know for sure.
Anyone able to help settle my mind? :?

Aryanya

10-15-2009, 03:10 PM

Galpar

10-15-2009, 05:30 PM

Curious

Is this speed hack catching affecting crafting slow loading as well???

Aryanya

10-15-2009, 06:19 PM

Curious

Is this speed hack catching affecting crafting slow loading as well???

Nope, that's just lag

Galpar

10-15-2009, 08:15 PM

Nope, that's just lag

Thank you

Seems to be doing better tonight on the lag, and only rubberbanded about twice tonight.

Alegis

10-16-2009, 03:32 PM

The rubberbanding is fine, if it's slowing down hackers, that's a good thing. I know manny combateers find it annoying though. With current resources, I applaud having an anti-hack system at all. A suggestion I have to make is to make rubberbanding on a smaller scale. For instance let's say you rubberband every 10 m. It would be favorable to the player base if it was reduced to 1-3m. Of course I'm not sure how to do this but I'm not a good programmer myself. Thank you devs and GM's.

Rubberbanding is good if it really only affects the people who hack.

But if it affects everyone it isnt good anymore.
I get rubber-banding like hell atm. nearly impossible to play/test

Edit: Combination of Dizzy, Lag and Rubber-banding makes impossible to test for me, at the moment. I hope this issue is on high-priority.

Dark Mandalore

10-16-2009, 09:33 PM

This may or may not be the right thread for this but here goes.

I had a potential idea to streamline the fine tuning of the Anti-Hack, run a seperate server just like the current one but giving 1 mil creds for training and only 1 planet available, have a one week 150-250 person application period where you pick people based on region and connection speed (to account for all types of lag). Once the applicants have been narrowed down for who will help test/fine tune give about 1/3 of the people a speed hack grade speed of varying degrees. Then tune the AH so only the folks with the souped up speed get rubberbanded.

That way we dont have do deal with the rubberbanding while trying to test and the problem is still solved in the end, and so what if jim-bob gets jedi with his hack, theres bound to be another wipe and he's bound to be caught.

P.S. For the record, right now I cant even move 5 feet WALKING half the time because of the AH system, kinda hard to test when you cant move at all :p.

Emokho

10-16-2009, 10:34 PM

I can't do anything ingame anymore. It was kinda slow when I first connected but just before I logged out I walked to a mission waypoint, stood on it for 20 seconds waiting for it to update, and suddenly rubberbanded back 568 meters. The "don't use travel biscuts cause it makes it worse" idea kinda goes out the window when you already have 4/0/0/0 scout, I feel bad for the rangers right now.

I honeslty don't believe permabanning people for hacking is a bandaid, I think the rubberbanding is. With the lag that's been goin on lately and the rubberbanding on purpose it takes too long to do anyting to have a testable environment. Two weeks ago there were the same amount of people online, and people speedhacking apparently, and I didn't notice much lag at all except some spike or when in buisy cities, now I can't get a mission to update. Personaly, I think banning the hakers is good, keeping the rubberbanding in is bad. Mabey I'm biased because my character rubber bands like crazy every time their terrain negotiation takes effect anywhere but how are we supposed to test scout, ranger, squadleader, bountyhunter, CH, excetera that requie scout when the scouts can't move?

Yes, I do realise I can be an argumentative B... child of unwed parrents, but this whole week I've realy been trying to be patient and the problem keeps getting worse when I'm logged in, except yesterday, when I had a steady 2803 ping for 3 hours and nothing even hiccuped asfar as lag.

the turely sad part is I'd rather be logged onto an EMU when I can't do anyting on it than playing any other game out there smoothly. What the heck is wrong with game designers these days?

darkblader03

10-17-2009, 03:21 PM

Amitrov_Derinth

10-17-2009, 07:59 PM

so if u have a crappy connection, u are most likly going to ruber banding all over the place. that happen to me the other night i was banding back and forth between 3 differnt places, then i gat lagged out of game. Also, what about scouts who have the first tree filled which lets them have higher land navagation then other?

Not sure I remember reading it right, and admittedly I didn't read every post, but i think it was stated that the worse your connection, the better off you are. No idea why that is, I think whoever brought it up explained it though... All I know is my old 56k might be getting some love. :D

Anyway, it's pretty interesting coming back from a week of Midterms to this. Really pissed me off hearing about the first speed hacker, and the idea that there were dozens... I'm really glad to hear you guys are cracking down, even if there is rubber banding issues... (Admittedly, I havn't had a chance to try and play through the rubber-banding, so I don't know just how bad it is. :/) Ah well, I've nothing to really add as of yet. Cept to "lol" at Botswains bit. :P

Also, anyone tried just holding shift, and walking from place to place? Not trying to be a smart-@$$, just wondering if it works.

dizmull

10-17-2009, 08:16 PM

i have 1-2 minutes dealy in combat

Master Chief

10-17-2009, 10:35 PM

Well I haven't even been able to connect to the galaxy for whatever reason, so I'm denied any testing revenue. Even if I were able to log on, with the buzz of the lag problem, I don't think that I would be able to get much done anyway.

I guess this is one of those times where it's best to just lay dorment, hang back, and let STAFF take care of things...unless if I were to somehow magically become STAFF, which then I'd have to help out. I would love that sort of thing, but until I get that privilege, I think that the best thing would to simply sit out for some time.

Lobreeze

10-18-2009, 12:55 AM

What would you actually do if you 'magically' become staff?

Alegis

10-18-2009, 12:56 AM

Also, anyone tried just holding shift, and walking from place to place? Not trying to be a smart-@$$, just wondering if it works.

I need to see you walking thousands of meters.
Have fun if you need the Lok PoI "Adi's Rest" :D

atticus13

10-18-2009, 10:41 AM

So where can we turn in an obvious speed hacker if we run into one? These scum are ruining the game for those who play it the right way...

MarlonB

10-18-2009, 11:19 AM

Instead of actively blocking speedhackers, why not take the WoW approach.
Detect suspicious players ( you can detect them as you use it for the rubber banding), flag them and when necessary bag them?

Right now the emu is not in a playable/testable state.

Hal

10-18-2009, 12:20 PM

Although it is annoying, it is certainly not to the point of unplayable; and yes, it can cause the occasionally unintentional death, which is aggravating to say the least, but so long as this does not carry over to Sun Crusher, I can live with it until the devs get a handle of the problem.

If it were as easy as capturing packets with a packet sniffer and identifying a speed hacker, I am sure, or at least hope, that they would use that method of identifying the abusers. Otherwise, the only method left is for players and/or staff to visually determine that someone is speed hacking, and that can lead to false accusations. The method that the system currently uses that causes rubberbanding obviously is not accurate enough to only catch speed hackers as it is affecting all of us.

I think, if it is at all possible, that speed limits should be set. Let's say that normal walking lets us move .25 m/s and burst-running lets us move .5 m/s and force-running allows movement of 1 m/s (all made of values as I do not know the actually numbers), then when each of those commands are executed, it cannot be falsified by sending incorrect data to the server from a speed-hacked client.

Until the devs get a handle on the issue I believe that we should just make due. I see a lot of complaining and again, I too get aggravated, but in the long run, if the devs can come up with a workable solution, then give them time.

Gelasius

10-18-2009, 01:24 PM

problem is what prevents a player on a free game to just make another account and start another character if permanantly banned?

Gelasius

Kayliaah

10-18-2009, 01:40 PM

problem is what prevents a player on a free game to just make another account and start another character if permanantly banned?

Gelasius

Looks like banned people can still browse the forums anyway.
I see black names coming back all the times, hax.

Ravashack

10-20-2009, 02:29 PM

Personally, while the rubber banding is aggravating to say the least... I want to express my appreciation to the SWGEmu staff. Thank you for all the hard work you are doing, thank you for bringing back something I loved playing, and testing is partially on hold for me (as someone who LOVED crafting) until the OR is released. Until then, I wait with bated breath. Thank you.

Yyss'a

10-20-2009, 09:20 PM

I say we give Jedi to everyone and speed hack to all. Problem solved.

Chayn

10-21-2009, 07:27 AM

problem is what prevents a player on a free game to just make another account and start another character if permanantly banned?

Gelasius

This is why they are not giving up on prevention and the rubberbanding persists. As I believe Max said, "It is easier to fix the car than the driver". Policing thousands of players individually is impossible and not an option... new IP, new account.... to many work-arounds to be viable..

LdyCharmne

10-21-2009, 10:44 AM

CapnSwifty

10-21-2009, 11:20 AM

An idea ive been thinking of ...

The people that are actually speed hacking vs the people that the server assumes are speed hacking due to server, client, internet lag.

Couldn't the last known packet receive time from the particular client be taken into account to easily see the difference between lag and speed hacking.

ex. I have a speed of 15. I get up and run 100m at that set speed. The server doesn't get my packets for a few seconds and doesn't realize I moved until I'm already standing 100m away. Packet Time of last known packet - Packet Time of current packet = N. N x 15 = 100m == no speed hax.

I typically have a ping rate around 65-70 which I believe to be pretty good.
I also have decent I-net bandwidth 3Mbps up and 16 Mbps down.
Unfortunately I believe most of my banding is due to loading mobs and not because of me crossing x distance in y amount of server time. Assuming this the speed hax prevention system is banding for a lot more than covering X distance in Y server time where Y is greater than expected.

I know that the current method is being tweaked ... just wanted to throw in my 2 creds.

Supa

10-23-2009, 12:03 AM

With the lack of vehicles, I can see how people are tempted to speed-hack. I know I've been running around planets just hunting banthas or fambaa at my leisure and thought "I wish I could have a bike to make this go faster"... for people who are trying to collect all of the POIs I can see how that run to Adi's Rest or other such places can be a real pain. I know it's annoying to be surveying for resources- chasing something down and get killed over 2k from a city and have to run back out there with no combat skills.

I really think once mounts or vehicles (or both) are re-introduced there will be a much lesser need to speed-hack, since the tools to move faster will be in place. Some people of course will still do it, but hopefully they are already gone.

Heh, running everywhere isn't that horrible. To get the Krayt Skeleton POI, I had to catch up to the group and ran from Mos Eisley all the way there. Roughly 8500 m. :P

There really is no excuse to speed hack. You know what you're playing (MMO for those that don't...), so you should have expected that you would be spending quite a long time playing to get what you want.

Plotiko

10-23-2009, 08:54 PM

Can't we just let the people speed hack and hope they get caught? Why punish the majority for a select few?

I would rather someone cheat and get caught (eventually) than not be able to play due to rubberbanding.

Strikor

10-23-2009, 09:06 PM

Rubber banding non-hackers is NOT the fix. It's a lag issue with the server that hasn't been fully resolved yet. The idea is to make it so that non-hackers never rubber band but speed hackers do. It's a lot more effective than simply banning them when they get caught. Changing an IP address and making a new account isn't exactly difficult and server administrators, both here and in the future, would rather spend the time dealing with other issues. "omg jonnyb is totally speed hacking" takes a lot more time and resources to investigate than most people realize.

Clock

10-24-2009, 07:59 AM

I played swg at day 1. I remember the rubber banding being terrible especially after vehicles were implemented months later. I dont remember anything being said about it being caused to prevent speed hacking. Rubber banding existed for people even with system far beyond the requirements. If there is speed hacking prevention stuff implemented into the game over the original rubber banding problem I could only imagine how bad it could be. I never remember having it bad enough to not be able to escape mobs though. That would be seriously tough.

Sixotoo

10-24-2009, 10:30 AM

DraGa

10-24-2009, 10:39 AM

Would it be possible for the SWGEmu devs to make a server side run or movement command that we could use via a macro? We hit the macro button for run and the server makes our toon run until we send the command to stop. Then the client just kinda tags along. At least travel would be possible. and getting away from angry lairs :)

Oh, you mean what happens already when we hold the (walk forward) button on our keyboard? :D

NO, all the devs need to do is tweak it to be less sensitive. I'm curious as to why the rubberbanding hasn't decreased given it's been two weeks now. :emperor:

Alegis

10-24-2009, 11:06 AM

it may would be better to take this system out of the TC till they got the time to work in it.

Was 700meters away from theed for 5mins and now i tried to get to my lair for 15 times. It always warped me back if i reached the lair...

Raavin

10-24-2009, 11:53 AM

I'm not sure how much the coding works, but I know anytime I've modded system changes for Oblivion I could disable what I was doing in case it was too sensitive. Then I could add it in for a few hours or days depending on how long I was testing it and get it to work so the way I wanted, and if I needed a break from the working I could turn it off and play.

I wonder is there any way to do that...

Sixotoo

10-24-2009, 07:58 PM

Oh, you mean what happens already when we hold the (walk forward) button on our keyboard? :D

NO, it would be more like a /follow only with no actual toon to follow. The server would move us at the normal speed and the client would just tag along and steer.

Colt-556

10-24-2009, 08:11 PM

This rubberbanding is rediculous, but the main problem with it is getting yanked back to a pack of mobs you're trying to escape. I know on more then one occasion I was running just to get yanked back endlessly, it was as if the game was TRYING to kill me. I don't know if it's possible, but if you could make the NPC's rubberband at the same rate players do, that'd go a long way to help. If I have to get yanked back to a previous position, why do the NPC's get to stay where they are?

corbaer

10-24-2009, 08:36 PM

http://www.swgemu.com/forums/showpost.php?p=446175&postcount=9

Falconer

10-24-2009, 08:55 PM

I'm curious as to why the rubberbanding hasn't decreased given it's been two weeks now. :emperor:

because nothing's been done, or atleast I haven't seen an announcement from a dev. They don't seem to be updating us much.

They said in the last policy change they were consitering removing the speed hack deterrent. and i believe 90% of the server population want's them to. The threat of a lifetime ban is enough for now.

I have a feeling that it is the tool causing the lag, everything was running so smoothly before it was put in. It seems like a program that is checking the movement speed of every person on would put extra stress on the server.

Vlada

10-24-2009, 09:02 PM

jfkocs

10-24-2009, 09:02 PM

This has got to stop, the game is untestable. Every time i enter combat and im trying to get someplace while running i constantly keep rubberbanding into the mob and end up dead. You need to figure out somethign different to prevent speed hacking. This is preventing players from testing the game let alone play it.:lightsaber:

Vlada

10-24-2009, 09:06 PM

This has got to stop, the game is untestable.

I LOLed.

Every time i enter combat and im trying to get someplace while running i constantly keep rubberbanding into the mob and end up dead.

I LOLed again.

You need to figure out somethign different to prevent speed hacking. This is preventing players from testing the game let alone play it.:lightsaber:

ROFLing from this one.

corbaer

10-24-2009, 09:11 PM

because nothing's been done, or atleast I haven't seen an announcement from a dev. They don't seem to be updating us much.

They said in the last policy change they were consitering removing the speed hack deterrent. and i believe 90% of the server population want's them to. The threat of a lifetime ban is enough for now.

I have a feeling that it is the tool causing the lag, everything was running so smoothly before it was put in. It seems like a program that is checking the movement speed of every person on would put extra stress on the server.

http://www.swgemu.com/forums/showpost.php?p=441492&postcount=468

Let me explain how the speed hack prevention works, and how it is causing rubberbanding occassionally (which if hasn't been noticed, it has improved drastically, and will only continue to improve until it is rarely noticeable).

Speed hacks work by modifying the client's local variable for telling the client how fast a player can move forward. As a player move's forward, his new position is sent to the server so that the server can keep track of where the client is going. Speed hack's simply modify this local variable by editing system memory. By increasing it to some arbitrarily large number, it allows the client to send larger distances covered, than they should be able to cover at the speed the server believes a player should be traversing.

For example:
Player's speed is set to 5 on the server. Player edits memory and sets it to 15. Now when player moves client side, all position updates sent to the server are increased by a factor of 3 greater than what they should be.

The fix:
In order to render speed hacks ineffective, we calculate how far a player should be able to move based on simple physics formulae. The distance traversed is directly proportional to speed and time.

We have begun calculation the max distance the client should be able to travel in this time, and bounce players back if they traverse farther than they should be able to. Hence rubber banding.

Anyone trying to speed hack with this enabled will rubber-band and not be able to speed hack anywhere.

The consequences:
Unfortunately, the equations are too precise, and do not account for lag. This is causing some players who are not speed hacking to just barely trip the detection, rubber banding them back to their last position. The greater the lag, the more frequent this occurs.

The future:
We have already outlined a new algorithm that should hopefully correct for lag, while still keeping speed hacking ineffective. We are testing it internally to make sure it doesn't make the situation worse before pushing it to TC. If it tests well internally, we will move it to TC where we hope it will hold up. If it doesn't, we will reinstate the old protection, and try again.

Why we can't just disable it and ban all speed hackers:
While in a perfect world, we could just ban anyone speed hacking, there are a couple reasons why this is impractical:
1) Lag can cause false positives from player perspective (players may appear to be speed hacking because of lag).
2) CSR's can't be actively monitoring every single player on the server looking for speed hackers.
3) Usually, speed hackers aren't caught until some damage has been done. It is a better method to prevent the damage being done in the first place.

So, please, accept our sincerest apologies of any rubberbanding. I seriously don't think anyone can claim it unplayable/untestable at this moment. I have spent considerable time myself in game, and barely rubberband - this has even led to some miscommunication that it is off. I assure you, it's not off. We are doing the best we can to improve it as quickly as possible, and it is in everyone's best interest that we do so.

It is actually a good thing that we are working to correct this issue now, rather than on SunCrusher when serious damage could have been made to the longevity of the server.

Thanks for understanding! Feel free to ask anymore questions you have concerning it. You can find me on IRC.

----

This has got to stop, the game is untestable. Every time i enter combat and im trying to get someplace while running i constantly keep rubberbanding into the mob and end up dead. You need to figure out somethign different to prevent speed hacking. This is preventing players from testing the game let alone play it.:lightsaber:

It seems to be capped, so others must be sticking around in the untestable environment. If it's untestable for you, perhaps do something else. I know I'll be having fun when I get home from work, testing in an untestable environment.

So it's not misconstrued... the preceding was not sarcastic, or in jest. Cope or peace.

SirJMon

10-24-2009, 10:11 PM

99% can be for removing it, it will still be up to developers to decide, not the "community".

Why does everyone get the impression that this is a democracy? Only thing that matters is the project, everything else of little importance or completely unimportant.

Well I hope this isn't their line of thinking. Because if it is, this project will fail. This isn't business but it's still along the same lines, and if you ran a business like this, it would fail eventually. SOE learned that one real quick after they released NGE. They said piss on the community and look what happened. Just sayin'....

corbaer

10-24-2009, 10:22 PM

Development and administration concerns will always take a front-seat to player happiness and comfort during development. After development - servers will be much more concerned with pleasing the masses with their daily (and often fickle) needs. Some sadly will be too appeasing I fear.

EDIT: To clarify, reaching a stable, efficient pre-cu server software is the primary goal and is all about pleasing the community. Many just do get teary-eyed when the people who know how to accomplish that goal need to do something that the community doesn't "enjoy".

Furthur

10-24-2009, 11:03 PM

Loving the game! Loving what you all are doing! But i'm gonna go ahead and forfeit my testing status :D I'll be back when the rubber-banding is done away with. It is hard enough being able to craft a speeder and not use it, harvesters and such. (i know they are bugged its cool) Being flung 400m at a time, covering the equivalent of 4-5 times the distance to the mission each time I make a run.. I choose to clone instead of run back because its faster to die..heal my fatigue and wounds, re-buff and run out again then it is to walk back :)

Crafting? won't even bother..i grinded to novice WS/ART/AS/SW and finally got tired of waiting on my station to load. Harvesting? sure i can survey! but i rubberband all the way to the resource spawn and then AFK sample my way to resources. :(

bbl and i'll hope to test again!

Falconer

10-25-2009, 05:08 AM

Sixotoo

10-25-2009, 05:32 AM

Everyone knows this is a test server so please stop with the "If you don't like it GTFO"

Would it be reasonable to ask that the anti-SH be turned off when its not actively being "Tweaked"

I for one could live with the days when its on if I knew it was being adjusted.

And who really cares if someone runs too fast on a test server?

Vlada

10-25-2009, 05:43 AM

And who really cares if someone runs too fast on a test server?

Apparently this "community" does, they were crying like little babies because someone unlocked Jedi "FASTER" than the rest of them. They made 4,321,441 threads asking for actions to be taken against "TC speed hackers".

You should really thank them for SPEED free TC. ;)

Sixotoo

10-25-2009, 05:56 AM

Thank them. right. They get Jedi by hacking. They get caught. They get to keep their Jedi and we get rubberbanding and lag which makes it almost impossible to finish the jedi quest ourselves. They get a prize and we get double screwed.

Colt-556

10-25-2009, 06:20 AM

Frankly, I must agree with the notion 'who cares?' It is a test server, it's gonna be wiped ANYWAYS, who really cares if people speed hack to get around? If anything they're speeding up the testing process as they can get things done faster, which can point out bugs faster. Obviously speed hacking will have to be dealt with before the emu goes live, but it doesn't have to be dealt with NOW. Deal with it after the restructure thing, when lag is minimized and all that other junk. It simply isn't a big deal at the moment and by trying to prevent it you're just hurting the ENTIRE community, and inhibiting testing.

Sixotoo

10-25-2009, 06:35 AM

tired of arguing about it

Vlada

10-25-2009, 08:18 AM

Colt-556

10-25-2009, 09:03 AM

No, we got the prize, we got exactly what "community" was asking for.

I learned long ago, sometimes the communities right, most of the time it's not. But in the end I think we all (or atleast most of us) can agree that this rubberbanding issue IS harming testing, if it takes us hours to do 20 minute tasks simply cuz we keep getting rubberbanded, how are we suppose to test stuff? I, personally, think it'd be best to just remove it, let the speed hackers do what they want, and focus on more important issues. Who really cares if they hack to get ahead? The server's gonna be wiped clean anyways, it's really no different then when blue frogs were around and people got stuff instantly.

BoDiE'

10-25-2009, 10:17 AM

Emokho

10-25-2009, 10:23 AM

there's just a few thing I'd like to add and reiterate:

1. As stated a littel while ago, this project is infact run by the developers with the donations of the population. If the population becomes too upset they will remove funding, that is why they should be listend to. Any group of people who holds any power anywhere only does so because the people they hold power over allow them to.

2. From reading about the banned people (One or two got all the publicity, but I highly doubt that is "half a guild") The majority of them are still gone and didn't care about testing or any of us, they are laughing their butts off because so long after their banning people are still experianceing negatives from thier cheating.

3. The community asked for the removal of cheaters, unfortunatly that seemed to come hand in hand with a prevention system that only effects 1 kind of cheating and is detrimental to every's involvement.

Now, there is a system I've seen on other free games that checks the users computer for hacks and third party programs between the launch screen and the game. I don't know anything about it's price but it appears to be setup to run in the exe file before the game itself. Something like that might be usefull here if it's possible to add as a patch so everyone has it to run somewhere before the title screens, no hacks, no viruses, no third party anything except this one program.

Colt-556

10-25-2009, 10:27 AM

I am trying to get 3km up the road to kill some banthas and it has so far taken me 35 minutes to do one kilometer. Is that necessary? If it is then fair enough, but I suspect that it isn't. Can it not be, "tweaked," so it isn't as severe? I have to say though, a hack free server has to be worth it in the end.

Key phrase, in the end. According to what I've heard the emu isn't even in the beta stages, something as trivial as speed hacking (not even that bad of a hack) really should be the least of anyones worries. There's PLENTY of more important things that need doing, and need testing. We really just do not need the entire server to suffer from a feature that does nothing but inhibit everyones ability to play and test.

When the emu gets nearer to completion, and when everything is running smoothly and is optimized and relativly lag free, THEN you focus on cracking down on these hackers. But for now, just let the speed hackers zip around planets like the flash, it really doesn't hurt anyone, it just allows them to get places faster. Sure it's kind of annoying know they can just zip around while you have to walk, but in the end, who cares? Everything we do is gonna be wiped anyways, so wether you got it this second, or in a couple days, it's all going to be wiped in the end. So I'd rather spend those days NOT being thrown around like a rag-doll because of some unnecessary anti-hack feature.

BoDiE'

10-25-2009, 10:33 AM

I'm not enjoying this feature myself. To test doesn't mean you have to rushing backwards and forwards in the hope of becoming an alpha class jedi, because lets face it thats what everyones really crying about. This game is in test phase, is free and is far better than NGE. Hackers do break games and make it worse for everyone. I am wondering how many epic Q_Qs were being posted on the forums when people were using speeder hacks?

Alegis

10-25-2009, 10:44 AM

Hackers do break games and make it worse for everyone.

But the point is, speed-hackers dont let us run the same hundreds of meters for three or more times or let our characters wait 3min. before using a special etc.

Atm. everyone get punished for the hacks a few ppl used.
Thats why some ppl get a lil angry. And maybe because no one can see the end of this.

bongandbeer

10-25-2009, 10:53 AM

how exactly do those "speedhacks" cause the lagg?

i dont know crap about this but i would be glad to know

corbaer

10-25-2009, 10:55 AM

http://www.swgemu.com/forums/showpost.php?p=446239&postcount=71

bongandbeer

10-25-2009, 11:00 AM

http://www.swgemu.com/forums/showpost.php?p=446239&postcount=71

thanks

BoDiE'

10-25-2009, 11:20 AM

But the point is, speed-hackers dont let us run the same hundreds of meters for three or more times or let our characters wait 3min. before using a special etc.

Atm. everyone get punished for the hacks a few ppl used.
Thats why some ppl get a lil angry. And maybe because no one can see the end of this.

I repeat, I do not like this feature than any of you and the fact that you are failing to see the big picture is pretty disappointing. What are you all going to do when the developers decide to pull the plug due to the lack of thanks and copious amounts of epic crying? It's a test server and we have to get over it.

Alegis

10-25-2009, 11:27 AM

copious amounts of epic crying?

Idk how it looks if you cry. But i dont see any crying in my post.

Furthur

10-25-2009, 11:40 AM

definitely not crying. Just going to leave until something is fixed. They don't need me clogging up the bandwidth if I can't do anything. I'm extremely excited about this project and am eager to be able to financially contribute to the development. (student) I love playing the game but right now getting things done takes too much time.

takes at least an hour for me to do 2 missions, mobs often 'too far away' lairs don't spawn. I can handle that part but being at my mission and getting ported back into a cantina = lame. I'll be patient and come back in a few months to check in on the project again!

jfkocs

10-25-2009, 03:59 PM

:cool:Development and administration concerns will always take a front-seat to player happiness and comfort during development. After development - servers will be much more concerned with pleasing the masses with their daily (and often fickle) needs. Some sadly will be too appeasing I fear.

EDIT: To clarify, reaching a stable, efficient pre-cu server software is the primary goal and is all about pleasing the community. Many just do get teary-eyed when the people who know how to accomplish that goal need to do something that the community doesn't "enjoy".

When you cannot test the game how can you get an efficient pre-cu server? the answer is easy you cant. What people are addressing is the fact that this will not deliver an efficient pre-cu server but an inefficient server. Would it please the community to stop the rubber banding? Yes, will it enable people to test quests, zones, areas, encounters, features? Yes it would. So why are you so set against it? Id rather spend 30 minutes of my time to test out a mission or features then having to spend several hours doing it. I remember back in the day before vehicles and when mounts just came out the only way to get places were mounts. I recall not having a mount and running from nyms to the volcano to a player city and getting nailed by Kimos, then having to start the journey all over again. It wasnt fun and niehter is this rubber banding. I've donated to this game in the past, im sure ill donate in the future once this becomes testable. :cool:

corbaer

10-25-2009, 04:22 PM

Sheneyney

10-25-2009, 05:00 PM

Colt-556

10-25-2009, 05:13 PM

As I've said... I am sorry you don't think that it's in a state worth testing. Progress is still being made by others, even in the dreadful lag. Furthur has an idea that makes a lot of sense for people that think this is not worth it atm, it's a far better decision than getting angry/sad/annoyed/frustrated/irritable or any of the other unhelpful emotions expressed this weekend.

Progressing to a stable, efficient pre-cu server will come with time, and not when it's convenient for the testers "play time".

Yes, progress is still being made, and yes we are getting closer to an efficient pre-cu server. The thing is, this rubberbanding is making it take LONGER. It's an unnecessary "fix" that's broken and drastically slows down, and sometimes, halts testing entirely. It serves no purpose at the moment, since as I've said it's a test server that's going to be wiped and speed hackers simply are a non-issue at the moment, and ontop of being unnecessary, it makes it VERY difficult to test.

Why be inefficient in our goal to reach an efficient pre-cu server? Why not reach for an efficient pre-cu server in an efficient manner?

Blue

10-25-2009, 05:26 PM

Yes, progress is still being made, and yes we are getting closer to an efficient pre-cu server. The thing is, this rubberbanding is making it take LONGER. It's an unnecessary "fix" that's broken and drastically slows down, and sometimes, halts testing entirely. It serves no purpose at the moment, since as I've said it's a test server that's going to be wiped and speed hackers simply are a non-issue at the moment, and ontop of being unnecessary, it makes it VERY difficult to test.

Why be inefficient in our goal to reach an efficient pre-cu server? Why not reach for an efficient pre-cu server in an efficient manner?

i have to agree here, being a TC it's not important since everything is going to get wiped.. the problem with the rubberbanding comes specially lately with the insane lag, which when mixed with this it really makes doing anything a living hell.. specially in any kind of combat situation or even going from one point to another which already takes long enough since we have to run everywere... on the lag issue is it hardware related? bandwith? it's just debuggin? because 15-20 secs of lag is a lot...

corbaer

10-25-2009, 05:32 PM

Colt-556

10-25-2009, 05:42 PM

Obviously the devs and admins have decided differently. It's not something that they just turned on and forgot about... it's a necessary part of the the development of the server software - as any live server in operation will need the anti-exploit tools just as much as the server software.

While primary development is focused on a separate branch (OR) and not being actively tested on Nova, now is a great time to work on other aspects of the project, like these tools.

Decisions like this will be made on what's best for development, and the devs have a pretty good handle on what the needs of development call for.

The point I think you're missing is, no one is saying there shouldn't be rubberbanding, or that anti-hack fixes shouldn't be developed. We're saying it doesn't have to happen NOW. Live servers wont be out for a long, long time. And the TC's gonna be wiped in the end ANYWAYS, these fixes simply are not necessary at the present time. All they do is inhibit the communities ability to play and test, which overall slows down the project as bugs are slower to be found.

There simply is just no viable reason to keep the rubberbanding. It's broken, it makes everyone pissed, it inhibits testing, all to prevent a pretty harmless hack used on a server that's going to be wiped. If you can somehow justify this, you should go into politics because you can spin even the most retarded situations :|

Merak Bashee

10-25-2009, 05:46 PM

Colt-556

10-25-2009, 05:50 PM

Colt's last statement reminds me of Hideo Kojima.

On another note, considering we have to run about just about anywhere (Since dear GOD I used the shuttleport once and I swear it ripped me off 3k credits), as we're without vehicles, speed hacking could even be of benefit, if only to move around.

Pulls flame shield up.

While speed hacking being something to be encouraged (at the moment) is certainly controversial, that should be up to the individual player and his ethics. In the end speed hacking should just be ignored at the moment, there's simply bigger concerns that need addressing. Speed hacking, and all hacking, should be dealt with when the game is in a more stable condition and closer to release.

Labyrinth

10-25-2009, 06:01 PM

While speed hacking being something to be encouraged (at the moment) is certainly controversial, that should be up to the individual player and his ethics. In the end speed hacking should just be ignored at the moment, there's simply bigger concerns that need addressing. Speed hacking, and all hacking, should be dealt with when the game is in a more stable condition and closer to release.
Tell that to the people who would instantly start QQ'ing about speedhackers once the prevention was removed. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. And the Slice is always cheaper from the other side of the Fence's mood....be a good customer. :|

Colt-556

10-25-2009, 06:03 PM

Tell that to the people who would instantly start QQ'ing about speedhackers once the prevention was removed. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. And the Slice is always cheaper from the other side of the Fence's mood....be a good customer. :|

I'd tell them to shut their mouths and gtfo. A few people speed-hacking and getting jedi a day before me is preferable to spending weeks not being able to do jack all. If they're really so vain as to care that someone got jedi, on a test server, that's going to be wiped, because they hacked. They really should be ignored.

Labyrinth

10-25-2009, 06:07 PM

I'd tell them to shut their mouths and gtfo. A few people speed-hacking and getting jedi a day before me is preferable to spending weeks not being able to do jack all. If they're really so vain as to care that someone got jedi, on a test server, that's going to be wiped, because they hacked. They really should be ignored.
And the cycle would continue.

Colt-556

10-25-2009, 06:13 PM

And the cycle would continue.

True, but in the end the good of the many outweighs the good of the few. It'd benefit EVERYONE to remove rubberbanding, and while some people might ***** cuz speed hackers are progressing forward, big deal. Like I said, a couple people hacking to get jedi on a server that's gonna be wiped is preferable to the entire community being unable to test properly.

corbaer

10-25-2009, 06:31 PM

Some obviously think that the good of the many constitutes a better playing experience - and I think that's a reasonable opinion, but don't entirely share it.

I believe that the good of the many is best served working on any part of the server and it's related tools that can be worked on during this time of "less visible" development. All progress on the front of making this server software not only finished, but administrate-able is better for the end-goal of the project than providing the best possible playing experience.

Alegis

10-25-2009, 06:32 PM

/Agree Colt

Its very nice if they punish hackers, but not if all others get punished at the same time.

What i said before: the best will be to turn it off for the moment and put it back in for testing, when they are able to work on it (if OR got finished for example).

It doesnt looks like they are working on it atm, because absolutly nothing changed for weeks now.
Thats ok, because they dont really get paid for it and doing it in their freetime.
But as long as they cant work on it, it makes no sense to let it stay on the servers.

Colt-556

10-25-2009, 06:34 PM

Exactly Alegis. It isn't even a matter of them ignoring it entirely. If they wanna work on it now that's fine. But they can't just throw some half-assed rubberband code on the server, and just forget about it, which is what they've done if it's been this way for weeks. They should work on it, throw it ingame, after a few days see if it works or not. If it doesn't they turn it off, tweak it, and stick it back on. Expecting us to endure weeks of bull**** rubberbanding that makes testing a very unpleasent, and time consuming process is just unnecessary.

Labyrinth

10-25-2009, 06:54 PM

True, but in the end the good of the many outweighs the good of the few. It'd benefit EVERYONE to remove rubberbanding, and while some people might ***** cuz speed hackers are progressing forward, big deal. Like I said, a couple people hacking to get jedi on a server that's gonna be wiped is preferable to the entire community being unable to test properly.
To me it's all the same *****-filled cycle. I've seen plenty of people right now who shrug at rubberbanding and others who just make a big joke of it. The vocal people really are a minority.

Yhor

10-25-2009, 06:58 PM

Labyrinth

10-25-2009, 07:06 PM

The trolls would have you believe that a majority of the community wanted to keep rubberbanding in and cried to have it. That is a complete bold faced lie to make drama and divide this community. The people who were vocal about this subject, as this subject came about, overwhelmingly wanted rubberbanding removed and wanted a fair punishment for exploiting for personal gain (instead of reporting the nature of exploit for a fix).

To see this community continue to argue in circles, being trolled by liars who only wish to stir up drama is bull****, and needs to stop. If you want to believe them, that is your choice, and your failure.

Thread is closed, but here is the link to get a more accurate look at how the community reacted then.

http://www.swgemu.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33121

There is no real fix for speedhacking script-kiddies that won't piss off and 'punish' the entire community, not until the "fix" (rubberbanding speedhack code) is optimized. Good luck with that, because it seems some people, staff included, are enjoying all the drama entirely too much.
And I thought that community reaction was completely ridiculously out of hand. It was a sensationalistic bandwagon that kept rolling because of a complete flood of rumors about the speedhackers in question and a perfect scapegoat for a community that was rather tightly wound, despite being told ad infinitum that this is an Alpha stage Test Center.

And I don't care how many posted in that thread, it was still a minority of the community in comparison to its size, meaning that it's a cycle of bull****.

We done yet? This is a great way to procrastinate you know.

Bostwain

10-25-2009, 07:09 PM

lol. yes I wanted rubberbanding. what a kidder.

Colt-556

10-25-2009, 07:10 PM

Bostwain

10-25-2009, 07:11 PM

IIRC the poll thread aedan posted wasnt nearly as much as a landslide most would have hoped for.

http://www.swgemu.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33121&highlight=Rubberbanding

Labyrinth

10-25-2009, 07:15 PM

If majority of the active forum users said no, and they're the minority of the community at large. Then what about the minority of forum users who said yes? To judge a community of this size you need to base it off of those actively posting. If majority of the active forum users say "get this ****ty code off my server", then take it off, fix it, THEN put it back up.
Right, so to hell with the people who don't bother to speak up, correct? I mean, clearly their opinion isn't important if they don't bother to voice it.

If you have 15 people in a group and 3 say "do x," then clearly the people in charge should do what the 3 say, right? That seems to be what you're saying.

Yhor

10-25-2009, 07:17 PM

And I thought that community reaction was completely ridiculously out of hand. It was a sensationalistic bandwagon that kept rolling because of a complete flood of rumors about the speedhackers in question and a perfect scapegoat for a community that was rather tightly wound, despite being told ad infinitum that this is an Alpha stage Test Center.

And I don't care how many posted in that thread, it was still a minority of the community in comparison to its size, meaning that it's a cycle of bull****.

We done yet? This is a great way to procrastinate you know.

Do I agree, yeah, I do. 'He who remains nameless' was a scapegoat of sorts. I agreed (still agree) with the policy, but I do think the 'community' went to far with the mob mentality. It was stated there were other reasons for his ban besides just the speed script, but I can't say those with "proof" were able to prove it without question, even with that video. I "felt" it might be true, but feelings are just opinion... not worthy of an execution. He'll be back in a couple months, so it's not as bad as some make it out to be.

And yes, several hundred votes does not equal the whole of the community, but it's not without any validation.

I just know that this arguing over lies and trolling needs to stop. It does nothing for the community except divide it further.

Bostwain

10-25-2009, 07:18 PM

Vlada

10-25-2009, 07:19 PM

Right, so to hell with the people who don't bother to speak up, correct? I mean, clearly their opinion isn't important if they don't bother to voice it.

If you have 15 people in a group and 3 say "do x," then clearly the people in charge should do what the 3 say, right? That seems to be what you're saying.

That's what got us here in the first place.

We have 1k to 1.5k active players/testers on TC atm, only 50 of them maybe 70 wanted actions to be taken against speed-hackers, 90% don't have a clue waht is happening and why. But no one asked them and yet they are still rubber-banding, all 1,5k of them, all day, every day.

Yhor

10-25-2009, 07:22 PM

That's what got us here in the first place.

We have 1k to 1.5k active players/testers on TC atm, only 50 of them maybe 70 wanted actions to be taken against speed-hackers, 90% don't have a clue waht is happening and why. But no one asked them and yet they are still rubber-banding, all 1,5k of them, all day, every day.

How did you manage to come up with those numbers? An uneducated guess?

Bostwain

10-25-2009, 07:22 PM

Well as much as I hate it, I agree something needs to be there, but they could be a little more timely about something that is affecting EVERYTHING.

Bostwain

10-25-2009, 07:23 PM

How did you manage to come up with those numbers? An uneducated guess?

Aedan's poll.

Labyrinth

10-25-2009, 07:27 PM

Do I agree, yeah, I do. 'He who remains nameless' was a scapegoat of sorts. I agreed (still agree) with the policy, but I do think the 'community' went to far with the mob mentality. It was stated there were other reasons for his ban besides just the speed script, but I can't say those with "proof" were able to prove it without question, even with that video. I "felt" it might be true, but feelings are just opinion... not worthy of an execution. He'll be back in a couple months, so it's not as bad as some make it out to be.

And yes, several hundred votes does not equal the whole of the community, but it's not without any validation.

I just know that this arguing over lies and trolling needs to stop. It does nothing for the community except divide it further.
We can start by not arguing about whether we should be arguing or not. :)

That's what got us here in the first place.

We have 1k to 1.5k active players/testers on TC atm, only 50 of them maybe 70 wanted actions to be taken against speed-hackers, 90% don't have a clue waht is happening and why. But no one asked them and yet they are still rubber-banding, all 1,5k of them, all day, every day.
Are you saying it's sad they have to deal with it, without even knowing why or...? To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure.

If so, all I can say is that most people I run into either take the problem into stride and don't say much of anything or have some fun insulting the fact that the problem is there. In short, don't much care.

If not....**** me, I've been online too long. :|

Vlada

10-25-2009, 07:27 PM

How did you manage to come up with those numbers? An uneducated guess?

Our great community leader started with the insults, what are you gonna do if i respond the same way. Make a crybaby thread about how hurt you are, how you are leaving for good and runaway like last time, blaming it all no the divided community?

Colt-556

10-25-2009, 07:29 PM

Right, so to hell with the people who don't bother to speak up, correct? I mean, clearly their opinion isn't important if they don't bother to voice it.

If you have 15 people in a group and 3 say "do x," then clearly the people in charge should do what the 3 say, right? That seems to be what you're saying.

Yeah, they should. Why? Because the others didn't speak up and thus their wishes are unknown. How can the devs cator to those who wont even speak up? So yes, they should be ignored. If they want to be heard they can post like everyone else. And majority of those willing to speak up have clearly said "get this off my server until it's fixed".

Yhor

10-25-2009, 07:30 PM

Aedan's poll.

The poll showed significantly more wanted harsher punishments, more than a 1/3 more than he stated from his 'high' number.

Nit picking, I know. But the fact remains it was then, as it still is, influenced by biased people trying to spin it for their personal experience, and drama factor.

Bostwain

10-25-2009, 07:31 PM

Statistics are hard because you have so many refusals to polls (whether they dont know about it or just dont care to respond) because they're too busy killing the dumbed down INTARNET DARGONS regardless of the conditions.

Labyrinth

10-25-2009, 07:33 PM

Yeah, they should. Why? Because the others didn't speak up and thus their wishes are unknown. How can the devs cator to those who wont even speak up? So yes, they should be ignored. If they want to be heard they can post like everyone else. And majority of those willing to speak up have clearly said "get this off my server until it's fixed".
Okay. Cause the majority willing to speak said that right.

Way to endear yourself to the people who don't shout about everything. I'm sure you'd be an astounding community leader.

Vlada

10-25-2009, 07:34 PM

Are you saying it's sad they have to deal with it, without even knowing why or...? To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure.

If so, all I can say is that most people I run into either take the problem into stride and don't say much of anything or have some fun insulting the fact that the problem is there. In short, don't much care.

If not....**** me, I've been online too long. :|

They simply never come to forum, or do it once in a blue moon, so even though they may have an opinion on the situation it cant be heard because no one there is listening to them, if they want to be heard they have to come on this forum or IRC, but they never do.

Bostwain

10-25-2009, 07:35 PM

They simply never come to forum, or do it once in a blue moon, so even though they may have an opinion on the situation it cant be heard because no une there is listening to them, if they want to be heard they have to come on this forum or IRC, but they never do.

See my post :P

Vlada

10-25-2009, 07:36 PM

See my post :P

I was typing mine while you posted, i only saw it after i submitted mine, i could have just quoted and save my self some time. :)

Bostwain

10-25-2009, 07:40 PM

But now you wasted more time discussing the possibilty :P lol jk

Labyrinth

10-25-2009, 07:41 PM

Meh, you've got me there, Vlada/Bostwain (:p). I would be inclined to think, though, that if these people don't bother to speak up, they don't care that much that they have to deal with a prototype-like environment.

I'm probably just making **** up to win an argument though. That's the funny thing about debating.

...

It's been a weird day. :|

Bostwain

10-25-2009, 07:43 PM

Thank You for Smoking. Best movie for learning how to argue.

Labyrinth

10-25-2009, 07:46 PM

Thank You for Smoking. Best movie for learning how to argue.
Love that movie.

Colt-556

10-25-2009, 07:47 PM

I always go the way that if they don't speak up, they're indifferent and care not one way or the other. So at that point you look at who DOES speak up, and listen to what the majority of them say.

Bostwain

10-25-2009, 07:48 PM

HAY LOOK! Something we agree on!!

Kayliaah

10-25-2009, 08:38 PM

what are you gonna do if i respond the same way. Make a crybaby thread about how hurt you are, how you are leaving for good and runaway like last time, blaming it all no the divided community?

Muhaha Irony.

Timbab

10-25-2009, 08:39 PM

Nedak

10-25-2009, 08:44 PM

Yhor

10-25-2009, 09:33 PM

Our great community leader started with the insults, what are you gonna do if i respond the same way. Make a crybaby thread about how hurt you are, how you are leaving for good and runaway like last time, blaming it all no the divided community?
Where are these insults from our great community leader? I was under the impression Ekaika(sp?) was the community leader, where are the insults? Only insults I've seen are from trolls; if I insulted you by insulting trolls then I guess the truth hurts, but I never specifically called you a troll.

I vacated before due to the excessive trolling allowed on these boards, sure. Crybaby thread? Where? I explained I had no intention of supporting a community where blatant text 'attacks' on people, even brand new members, were allowed. Will I take another break from this, this go around? Hell no. You, and your buddies with the same mentality, aren't worth me giving up on this community. I feel sorry for you, and the staff that allow you to incite drama and belittle people (Staff participation has receded, but still exists as well).

Lobreeze

10-25-2009, 11:00 PM

sigh

Merak Bashee

10-26-2009, 11:25 AM

What an epic debate. Someone call CNN.

Bostwain

10-26-2009, 11:26 AM

Maybe we could get on Larry King Live.

Merak Bashee

10-26-2009, 11:30 AM

http://z.about.com/d/talkshows/1/0/A/-/-/-/larry.jpg

Furthur

10-26-2009, 03:43 PM

they're too busy killing the dumbed down INTARNET DARGONS

you win the thread.

Fuzzbuzz

10-26-2009, 05:16 PM

Rubber banding shouldn't exist if you rubber band 2 seconds after logging in, without moving.
I often can't do anything due to rubber banding... I lag though buildings, mountains, and everything else.

cxccharlie

10-26-2009, 06:07 PM

Well im one these dumbies that never type or say what i think and prob could speak for a lot of.people who dont write on forams .. for 1tthing people who do write on the forums usally expect spell check every %^ word and i dont like drama so I dont bother my 0......02 cents becouse its less that 2cents .heh dont have many friends online witch is fine I have non online friends heh anyway I have been reading whats going on and all I have to say is if >>>I was the one speed hacking or ANY hacking I dont have friends to back me so I would be removed from the game so I would hope and expect same to others but thats just my belief<<< ..I have consistent probs all day playing but try not to complian much, and hate the ruberbands just like anyone else heh .. it is only a TS soo oo for anyone wondering I did play pre cu nasius name was Arcantia and had a pre cu jedi so I do know how to play( ithink) :) not just some random guy but w/e that is non importent info lol

ps no i dont feal like hitting spell check i got better things to do >not sure what that is<

zabrakwith

10-26-2009, 06:39 PM

http://static.pyzam.com/img/funnypics/d/pyzambandface.jpg

Now the rubberbanding has gotten out of hand

Kendrick

10-26-2009, 08:16 PM

There is no antispeedhack program being run in the background, and anyone that believes this is fooling themselves.

Something is broken, and they don't know what or how to fix it. Or maybe the servers/bandwidth they have at their disposal can't handle such a top heavy game. Remember, SOE had Oracle (who maintained the db) or whoever it was in their offices for months trying sort the database problems and as far as I know they never did.

There is no justification for disrupting everyone's gameplay and testing because of a handful of people in a test server environment. It's all going to get wiped eventually anyway, so anything the hackers accomplish will be null and void. The smart play here is to let the hackers do their thing and track what/how they're doing it then moving forward with the necessary backend programs.

The mystical antispeedhack measures are nothing but cart before the horse backwards thinking.

Tigerfang

10-26-2009, 08:28 PM

Kendrick

you fail

Colt-556

10-26-2009, 08:32 PM

Can this be removed yet? I'd like to be able to play without spending 10 minutes being teleported to the same spot over and over.

Vlada

10-26-2009, 08:36 PM

Can this be removed yet? I'd like to be able to play without spending 10 minutes being teleported to the same spot over and over.

I don't think it will be removed. It was put in for a specific reason, so stop "speed hackers" (community demanded action to be taken). It will be tweaked, fixed, upgraded, but not removed.

Be careful what you wish for... (in this case demand) ;)

Colt-556

10-26-2009, 08:38 PM

Can it be tweaked, fixed, and upgraded BEFORE putting it on the server and forgetting about it? Since that's the major thing. If the devs are so adament about keeping it, fine. Remove it, fix it, put it back up. If it still doesn't work, remove it. There is simply NO excuse for putting up a faulty code and leaving it for two weeks while the entire testing process suffers dramatically because of it. There is just no excuse at all for that.

Vlada

10-26-2009, 08:40 PM

I think it is probably being tweaked on ITC, but the one running on TC will remain active to prevent any attempt of future speed hacking, until it is replaced by a tested and more advanced version. I think. :?

odwill

10-26-2009, 08:50 PM

This is something that is not going away but it isn't just put up on TC and forgotten.

The future:
We have already outlined a new algorithm that should hopefully correct for lag, while still keeping speed hacking ineffective. We are testing it internally to make sure it doesn't make the situation worse before pushing it to TC. If it tests well internally, we will move it to TC where we hope it will hold up. If it doesn't, we will reinstate the old protection, and try again.
Taken from here (http://www.swgemu.com/forums/showpost.php?p=441492&postcount=468).

Can we please stop doing this? -->>>:deadhorse:

Colt-556

10-26-2009, 08:57 PM

Can we please stop doing this? -->>>:deadhorse:

Depends, is the fixed version on the TC? Is everyone still suffering from a broken anti-hack? If so, then no, we can't stop. As I have said, if it's being worked on, GREAT, but until it's ready remove this broken one. There's no excuse to keep it up and make the ENTIRE community suffering, the very process of testing itself suffering from this. It aint like you have to worry about people speed-hacking in the time before the revised version is finished. Cuz even if they do, two words (or is it three?) DATABASE WIPE. So the hackers getting a couple days/weeks of freedom really doesn't matter, since in the end everything we do will be wiped. However in that time everyone else will be able to move normally. I have yet to see any sort of justification to keep the broken code on the server until the revised code is finished.

Lobreeze

10-26-2009, 09:02 PM

I'm not suffering. Honestly, I don't think the Devs need any justification. I think they have a better handle on development than you do.

Colt-556

10-26-2009, 09:05 PM

I'm not suffering. Honestly, I don't think the Devs need any justification. I think they have a better handle on development than you do.

Then they can continue to listen to, not just myself, but countless people ***** and moan because they're being rubberbanded back and forth hundreds of meters like a goddamn rag-doll. Obviously they have no responsibility to listen to us, and most of the time they shouldn't. But rubberbanding is impeding testing, maybe you don't suffer from it but hundreds of others do. When ignoring the community causes testing to suffer, that's just wrong.

Lobreeze

10-26-2009, 09:07 PM

Colt-556

10-26-2009, 09:22 PM

Well if you are so steadfast about 'testing' yet you afk macro which is a whole other kettle of fish..... My suggestion would be to come back after the OR and all these problems will be a thing of the past.

EDIT:

Especially when you admit you don't even report bugs, that is the job of the debugger....

Ok, I can deal with you arguing with me. But to flat out lie about me? I wont tolerate that. I NEVER said I don't report bugs, and when I see one that I think is kinda rare (obviously I wont report bugs like the micro animals, since EVERYONE knows about them), I report it. And again, even afk macro-grinding is still testing. Any action done on that server is testing.

Lobreeze

10-26-2009, 09:45 PM

And I quote Cilraaz

I guess the devs can just shut down the bug tracker then... or at least our ability to add bugs. They obviously don't need us adding bugs to the tracker, since they have the debugger. Spoken like someone who has no idea about programming, testing, and debugging.

Which you respond with

If the debugger can't detect bugs (which, is what it was sole purpose was, or atleast that's what I was told), then why is it there? Seriously. If it doesn't debug anything, why is on and lagging up everything?

You spamming afk macros standing in one spot hardly constitutes playing let alone testing. Furthermore, why on earth do you need to turn off the anti speedhacking algorithm? You aren't moving anyway.

I'm not arguing, I'm making very valid points.

Colt-556

10-26-2009, 09:49 PM

And I quote Cilraaz

Which you respond with

You spamming afk macros standing in one spot hardly constitutes playing let alone testing.

That response hardly says I don't report bugs, it just points out the flaw of saying a debugger doesn't detect bugs. And afk grinding DOES constitutes as testing, why? Because I'm doing it ingame. ANYTHING done ingame is testing. Every. Single. Little. Thing. is testing, simply because it's done on the server. My afk-grinding could potentially reveal a serious flaw of some sort that'd be picked up by the debugger (or reported by me when I noticed it) which would lead to it getting fixed. The point is, you don't know what bugs are out there waiting to be found, so any action, no matter what, is testing.

Lobreeze

10-26-2009, 09:52 PM

Quote from policy;
3.11. You will not perform AFK camping of a spawn, NPC or cave. Camping is defined as repeatedly hunting a lair, spawn or NPC in succession. TC allows multiple accounts and connections, therefore using multiple toon instances to create the effect to "out damage" other players is considered AFK camping. There is only one toon actually operated by a single player and all successive toons are considered AFK camping. All toons in such instances are subject to disciplinary actions. Obviously, this camping rule does not restrict all multiple game instances. For example, it is acceptable for two game instances to be operated by one player where one instance is an AFK crafter sampling ground resources and the other is a character that is being played At The Keyboard.

http://www.swgemu.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16670

Colt-556

10-26-2009, 09:56 PM

Quote from policy;

http://www.swgemu.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16670

And yet I read in several threads that aslong as your afk-grinding didn't harm others, you were free to do it. And infact, the rules you quoted do not prohibit afk-grinding, they prohibit afk camping. So yeah, I'm done arguing this with you here, this is about the retardation of keeping a broken anti-hack that's unnecessary and does nothing but harm the community and testing.

Lobreeze

10-26-2009, 09:57 PM

Wasn't much of an argument but,

Cool story bro... I guess you know better than all of us. Maybe you could come up with a better algorithm seeing as how you have such a strong grip on things here?

Colt-556

10-26-2009, 10:01 PM

Wasn't much of an argument but,

Cool story bro... I guess you know better than all of us. Maybe you could come up with a better algorithm seeing as how you have such a strong grip on things here?

Never said I could do better, nor that I have any control over anything. Does that mean I should just sit quietly as this code wreaks havoc for hundreds of players, including myself? Naw. It's quite clear that this code NEEDS to be removed, and that majority of people want it gone. And as I have said so many times, the servers going to be wiped in the end anyways, so anything obtained by hackers is null and void, as it will all be erased. So removing the broken code, and letting people play and test efficiently is far superior to making us all suffer with this bull**** for god knows how much longer.

Lobreeze

10-26-2009, 10:04 PM

See now here's there problem, there are many who see the need for it. So who's right? The developers or the people who know nothing of development or coding.

Not really a tough call there.

And as I said before, if you truly are suffering come back after the OR. There will still be plenty of testing to be done. You not playing for a few months won't hinder anything at all I'm sure.

Labyrinth

10-26-2009, 10:05 PM

Never said I could do better, nor that I have any control over anything. Does that mean I should just sit quietly as this code wreaks havoc for hundreds of players, including myself? Naw. It's quite clear that this code NEEDS to be removed, and that majority of people want it gone. And as I have said so many times, the servers going to be wiped in the end anyways, so anything obtained by hackers is null and void, as it will all be erased. So removing the broken code, and letting people play and test efficiently is far superior to making us all suffer with this bull**** for god knows how much longer.
What part of "they're working on a better algorithm and are going to try it out, once they finish testing it" don't you understand?

Lobreeze

10-26-2009, 10:07 PM

What part of "they're working on a better algorithm and are going to try it out, once they finish testing it" don't you understand?

The "they're working on a better algorithm and are going to try it out, once they finish testing it" part is what hes missing LOL

Colt-556

10-26-2009, 10:14 PM

What part of "they're working on a better algorithm and are going to try it out, once they finish testing it" don't you understand?

The part where they leave the broken, unnecessary one in place and make us suffer with it until it's done. As I've said oh so many times, I have no problem with an anti-hack being in place, as long as it works. The current one doesn't, and unless they magically finish the new one in the next second, that doesn't help. Which is why I want them to remove the broken one, and let us move without being thrown around like a rag-doll. And then once the new one is complete they implement it, test it, if it doesn't work they rinse and repeat. There's just no reason to keep the broken one in though. Unless somehow having this broken one ingame helps them create the new one, but other then that it serves no other purpose but to piss everyone off and limit testing capabilities.

Lobreeze

10-26-2009, 10:16 PM

This isn't about what YOU want. If you are truly so hard done by, I'll say it again, the OR should be done in a few months with all new things to test. I think it may suit you better then.

It's only a minority of the community up in arms over this. It can be frustrating at time, yes. But hardly QQ worthy. Seriously, if it bothers you so much just log out. It only a big deal because you make it a big deal.

What would you be doing if this project didn't exist? Be happy with what you have. Seriously.

Labyrinth

10-26-2009, 10:17 PM

The "they're working on a better algorithm and are going to try it out, once they finish testing it" part is what hes missing LOL
Clearly. :p

The part where they leave the broken, unnecessary one in place and make us suffer with it until it's done. As I've said oh so many times, I have no problem with an anti-hack being in place, as long as it works. The current one doesn't, and unless they magically finish the new one in the next second, that doesn't help. Which is why I want them to remove the broken one, and let us move without being thrown around like a rag-doll. And then once the new one is complete they implement it, test it, if it doesn't work they rinse and repeat. There's just no reason to keep the broken one in though. Unless somehow having this broken one ingame helps them create the new one, but other then that it serves no other purpose but to piss everyone off and limit testing capabilities.
Ok, let's pretend that line of logic makes sense.

Now let's see, how about we shut down this project till it's perfect? If some of the code is broken, then clearly it should be removed poste-haste.

Lobreeze

10-26-2009, 10:20 PM

Logic be damned. He knows whats best clearly.

Colt-556

10-26-2009, 10:21 PM

Clearly. :p

Ok, let's pretend that line of logic makes sense.

Now let's see, how about we shut down this project till it's perfect? If some of the code is broken, then clearly it should be removed poste-haste.

If code is broken, it SHOULD be removed. That's the whole point of testing. However a lot of the Emu functions perfectly fine, so going by that logic the emu should be left up. When something is found to be broken, you remove it, fix it, put it back. It's also a matter of severity. If the bug doesn't harm anyone, or not that much, it'd be easier to just fix it then remove it. However in this case, when HUNDREDS of people (seriously dude, saying it's just me? There's like over a dozen different people in this one thread that hate it, COUNTLESS threads about it, and countless people ingame *****ing about it).

The rubberbanding is hated by almost everyone and I've seen like 3 people actually defend it, where as I've seen like 50 say how much they want it removed. It limits rp, hinders efficiency, pisses everyone off, and all around is detrimental to the testing of this emulator. When something is THAT bad, you remove it. There's simply no justification to leave it up if it's causing so much harm. Take it down, fix it, put it back up.

Lobreeze

10-26-2009, 10:23 PM

A whole 50 people?!?!?!?!?!!?

This website gets 2000 people a day. You have yet to provide anything helping your case. You just keep making wild, omnipotent-like and anecdotal statements.

Colt-556

10-26-2009, 10:24 PM

A whole 50 people?!?!?!?!?!!?

This website gets 2000 people a day.

It's called statistics, friend. If 3 people say "love it", and 50 say "hate it", I wonder which is more preferred?

I mean ****, if you wanna know how hated it is just go ingame and watch people go "****ing rubberbanding" in chat. I mean jesus, I know you're just arguing this point to troll me, but sometimes it scares me knowing that some people actually think it's the minority that hates this.

Lobreeze

10-26-2009, 10:27 PM

it's called statistics, friend.

Maybe because the vast majority don't care thus don't post. No one likes rubberbanding, not everyone thinks it should be removed. Most people certainly don't think its even worth posting about at all.

Lol, you should look up the definition of anecdotal and hearsay. You pulling two numbers out of your a** doesn't constitute statistics.

Most people I know don't clamor for it to be removed. I say 50 people want it and only 3 people hate it. Who's right?

Labyrinth

10-26-2009, 10:30 PM

Logic be damned. He knows whats best clearly.
I know right.

If code is broken, it SHOULD be removed. That's the whole point of testing. However a lot of the Emu functions perfectly fine, so going by that logic the emu should be left up. When something is found to be broken, you remove it, fix it, put it back. It's also a matter of severity. If the bug doesn't harm anyone, or not that much, it'd be easier to just fix it then remove it. However in this case, when HUNDREDS of people (seriously dude, saying it's just me? There's like over a dozen different people in this one thread that hate it, COUNTLESS threads about it, and countless people ingame *****ing about it).

The rubberbanding is hated by almost everyone and I've seen like 3 people actually defend it, where as I've seen like 50 say how much they want it removed. It limits rp, hinders efficiency, pisses everyone off, and all around is detrimental to the testing of this emulator. When something is THAT bad, you remove it. There's simply no justification to leave it up if it's causing so much harm. Take it down, fix it, put it back up.
No, no, you see, if one part of the code is broken, then clearly the whole thing should be taken down. Let's not wait for a fix in an environment that has been proclaimed countless times to be potentially unstable....ok, I'm sorry, I can't keep a straight face on that one.

This is just getting funny now. :D

It's called statistics, friend. If 3 people say "love it", and 50 say "hate it", I wonder which is more preferred?

I mean ****, if you wanna know how hated it is just go ingame and watch people go "****ing rubberbanding" in chat. I mean jesus, I know you're just arguing this point to troll me, but sometimes it scares me knowing that some people actually think it's the minority that hates this.
Sorry but....LOL. First of all, saying "****ing rubberbanding" != "take this out, before the hacker prevention is ready."

I also think it's funny how people throw the word "troll" around like it means anyone who says "I disagree."

Colt-556

10-26-2009, 10:31 PM

Maybe because the vast majority don't care thus don't post. No one likes rubberbanding, not everyone things it should be removed.

You should look up the definition of anecdotal and hearsay.

OR, maybe they don't post simply cuz they're too lazy to. I was doing lair runs with some guys ingame earlier, neither had forum accounts but both said (and mind you, I hadn't said anything in regards to rubberbanding before hand) "I wish they'd remove rubberbanding" or something to that effect.

EVERY time I'm around other people who are moving about, I hear sooo much *****ing about it. Every time I quest with people, or do anything with people that involves moving from point A to point B, I hear *****ing about the rubberbanding and most of the time, how it should be removed.

You're right though, not everyone wants rubberbanding removed, some deem it necessary. However MOST people do want it removed, and the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Lab, if PART of the code is broken, and it's bringing everything down, you remove it. I'm sorry if this simple concept is beyond you, but that's generally how programming works. Because that one tiny piece of code can **** up so much. And until it's fixed, it'll just keep ****ing everything up. I mean think of it from a hard-ware standpoint. You have your computer, it runs fine, but an OPTIONAL component keeps it from booting up. Your choices are

A: Leave it in while you repair it, being unable to use your computer

B: Remove it while you repair it, being able to use your computer.

The choice is painfully obvious, isn't it?

And I didn't call him a troll for disagreeing with me, you and him have been arguing with me for hours and I never called you trolls. I called him a troll for what he was doing in that post, trolling. Not because he was disagreeing with me, but because he was being an idiot. "dohoho 50 people! even though only like 3 are on the side of rubberbanding!" That was a very blatant trolling attempt, and I called him out on it.

Lobreeze

10-26-2009, 10:34 PM

sigh...

I was doing lair runs with some guys ingame earlier, neither had forum accounts but both said (and mind you, I hadn't said anything in regards to rubberbanding before hand) "I wish they'd remove rubberbanding" or something to that effect.

You get on at me about lying... How were those guys playing without forum accounts?

Fail. I think you've effectively made any points you are trying to make null and void.

Colt-556

10-26-2009, 10:37 PM

sigh...

You get on at me about lying... How were those guys playing without forum accounts?

Fail. I think you've effectively made any points you are trying to make null and void.

lawl, my bad, I meant that like the thousands of people ingame, they don't post. Wouldn't be the first time I mis-worded something, just look at my first post :|

Lobreeze

10-26-2009, 10:38 PM

Riiiiiight. Let me quote it again for effectiveness.

I was doing lair runs with some guys ingame earlier, neither had forum accounts but both said (and mind you, I hadn't said anything in regards to rubberbanding before hand) "I wish they'd remove rubberbanding" or something to that effect.

I think all that needs to be said has been said. Credibility = 0

Colt-556

10-26-2009, 10:44 PM

Riiiiiight. Let me quote it again for effectiveness.

I think all that needs to be said has been said. Credibility = 0

You know you've lost an arguement/debate when you have to use someones mistake in wording to try and win.

corbaer

10-26-2009, 10:45 PM

/me looks forward to getting home, and continuing to hunt down his rumor on Endor, even with the rubberbanding that people keep whining about incessantly and unnecessarily.

Sorry about your emotions. They make me sad too.

Labyrinth

10-26-2009, 10:45 PM

sigh...

You get on at me about lying... How were those guys playing without forum accounts?

Fail. I think you've effectively made any points you are trying to make null and void.
I think he did that in the first place and yet somehow I'm still arguing with him. :(

OR, maybe they don't post simply cuz they're too lazy to. I was doing lair runs with some guys ingame earlier, neither had forum accounts but both said (and mind you, I hadn't said anything in regards to rubberbanding before hand) "I wish they'd remove rubberbanding" or something to that effect.

EVERY time I'm around other people who are moving about, I hear sooo much *****ing about it. Every time I quest with people, or do anything with people that involves moving from point A to point B, I hear *****ing about the rubberbanding and most of the time, how it should be removed.

You're right though, not everyone wants rubberbanding removed, some deem it necessary. However MOST people do want it removed, and the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Lab, if PART of the code is broken, and it's bringing everything down, you remove it. I'm sorry if this simple concept is beyond you, but that's generally how programming works. Because that one tiny piece of code can **** up so much. And until it's fixed, it'll just keep ****ing everything up. I mean think of it from a hard-ware standpoint. You have your computer, it runs fine, but an OPTIONAL component keeps it from booting up. Your choices are

A: Leave it in while you repair it, being unable to use your computer

B: Remove it while you repair it, being able to use your computer.

The choice is painfully obvious, isn't it?

And I didn't call him a troll for disagreeing with me, you and him have been arguing with me for hours and I never called you trolls. I called him a troll for what he was doing in that post, trolling. Not because he was disagreeing with me, but because he was being an idiot. "dohoho 50 people! even though only like 3 are on the side of rubberbanding!" That was a very blatant trolling attempt, and I called him out on it.
Again, since when does "I wish they'd remove rubberbanding," mean "I would prefer speedhackers to get away with things over this rubberbanding."

Ok, hypothetical here. Government has a website that has top security information on it. Hackers find a way to steal information. Webmasters apply a prevention method that, without originally realizing it, slows down the speed of the website enormously. Now, here are the options:

A) Let the hackers run free and remove the prevention while working on a fix, because obviously the information will be wiped someday anyway, seeing as it's top secret.

B) Leave the prevention there until they can fix the security method, causing a lot pain for access, but preventing security leaks.

Hmm, I wonder which is better...

And no, his last thing was derisive sarcasm, not trolling. It becomes very tempting to use statements like that if the person you're arguing with doesn't seem to be understanding anything you're saying.

Should I start calling you a troll every time you use a cuss word? Look up the definition ffs.

Lobreeze

10-26-2009, 10:45 PM

No you getting caught in a lie and backpeddling is when you know you've lost.

To each his own.

http://plausibletech.com/delivers.jpg

Hang ten dudes

Naesen

10-26-2009, 10:47 PM

Here's something I have found: when I use the /burstrun technique it lowers my chance of rubberbanding by about 50%, even though my character is moving faster than normal, (probably because the server expects it) but as soon as I slow down, my percentage for rubberbanding gradually rises. Also: has anyone else witnessed what I want to describe as creature "slingshotting?" All of the sudden the critter you're locked in close combat with suddenly just jumps to lightspeed and vanishes, even though you still have them in your target box up at the right hand corner of the screen, but their distance is all of the sudden 150+ meters away from you, even though your toon's movements and actions have shown no lag.

Its not entirely detrimental but I figured it couldn't hurt to bring up.

Colt-556

10-26-2009, 10:52 PM

I think he did that in the first place and yet somehow I'm still arguing with him. :(

Again, since when does "I wish they'd remove rubberbanding," mean "I would prefer speedhackers to get away with things over this rubberbanding."

Ok, hypothetical here. Government has a website that has top security information on it. Hackers find a way to steal information. Webmasters apply a prevention method that, without originally realizing it, slows down the speed of the website enormously. Now, here are the options:

A) Let the hackers run free and remove the prevention while working on a fix, because obviously the information will be wiped someday anyway, seeing as it's top secret.

B) Leave the prevention there until they can fix the security method, causing a lot pain for access, but preventing security leaks.

Hmm, I wonder which is better...

And no, his last thing was derisive sarcasm, not trolling. It becomes very tempting to use statements like that if the person you're arguing with doesn't seem to be understanding anything you're saying.

Should I start calling you a troll every time you use a cuss word? Look up the definition ffs.

That example was HORRIBLE, man. I'll fix it for you.

Government has a website that let's you play flash-games, however it's a test-bed and will be completely wiped clean. Hackers hack in and give themselves the highest scores. The government adds an anti-hack but in doing so slows the site down to worse then 56k standards. Now because of this no one can test the new flash games. Their options are:

A: remove the anti-hack software, let the hackers enjoy their meaningless high scores while letting everyone else test the games

B: Leave the anti-hack on, and thus severely limiting the testing that can be done because it takes forever to do anything.

Hmmm, I wonder which is better....

Cuz in the end, that's the point. The server's gonna be wiped, anything the hackers obtain is meaningless, it'll all be taken away. So is it worth keeping them from cheating to get something they wouldn't be able to keep anyways, if it means making testing inefficient and pissing majority of the community off? If you can legitimently answer yes to that.... then wow.

Lobreeze

10-26-2009, 10:54 PM

I was doing lair runs with some guys ingame earlier, neither had forum accounts but both said (and mind you, I hadn't said anything in regards to rubberbanding before hand) "I wish they'd remove rubberbanding" or something to that effect.

I'd just like some clarification on that comment.

How did they:

a) log in without forum accounts
b) Talk to you without forum accounts? Did some random guests just decide to send you a random public message?

Colt-556

10-26-2009, 10:54 PM

I'd just like some clarification on that comment.

As I had already said, I said the wrong thing, simple. What I meant is they don't post. Thousands of people ingame have forum accounts, doesn't mean they post though.

Lobreeze

10-26-2009, 10:59 PM

Sure thing bud. Still sounds like fabricating scenarios to suit your argument to me.

Labyrinth

10-26-2009, 11:01 PM

Ok, hypothetical here. Government has a website that has top security information on it. Hackers find a way to steal information. Webmasters apply a prevention method that, without originally realizing it, slows down the speed of the website enormously. This information is sensitive and could cause all kinds of harm, but will be useless in a week. Now, here are the options:

A) Let the hackers run free and remove the prevention while working on a fix, because obviously the information will be wiped someday anyway, seeing as it's top secret.

B) Leave the prevention there until they can fix the security method, causing a lot pain for access, but preventing security leaks.

Hmmm, I wonder which is better....

Cuz in the end, that's the point. The server's gonna be wiped and no damage can be done like it already was, right?, anything the hackers obtain is meaningless, it'll all be taken away. So is it worth keeping them from cheating to get something they wouldn't be able to keep anyways, if it means making testing inefficient and pissing majority of the community off? If you can legitimently answer yes to that.... then wow.
That example was HORRIBLE, man. Let me fix it for you.

There, are you happy with my example now?

Colt-556

10-26-2009, 11:05 PM

Retarded examples aside, the point remains. Speedhackers getting jedi a couple days sooner then others has no baring on the project as a whole. And as someone has said, letting them go un-stopped will give the devs that much more time to study their hacks and find a truly good way to counter them. The only people who care about the hackers are vain faggots who are all "ZOMG HE GOT JEDI BEFORE ME!" As far as testing goes, the hackers really are of no consequence. And thus keeping an anti-hack ingame to stop them, that hurts EVERYONE. Is retarded, pure and simple.

Hellflinger

10-26-2009, 11:13 PM

1st off, I would like to say that by itself, my opinion means nothing. (and I'm pretty sure I will be quoted on this)
2ndly, If their are, as previously claimed, +2000 people visiting the sight a day, and *some* ratio of those that approve rubberBanding measures, to those that do not, let their be a vote. Really, everyone votes once per account\per email\per IP. That could decide the actual opnion of the people. (not that that neccessarily counts for much, but it is more substancial that my opinion)
3rdly as Colt556 quoted earlier, "Can it be tweaked, fixed, and upgraded BEFORE putting it on the server and forgetting about it? Since that's the major thing. If the devs are so adament about keeping it, fine. Remove it, fix it, put it back up. If it still doesn't work, remove it. There is simply NO excuse for putting up a faulty code and leaving it for two weeks while the entire testing process suffers dramatically because of it. There is just no excuse at all for that. "
Ok, I have a GREAT SOLUTION THAT SOLVES ALL YOUR PROBLEMS!
since it can't be tweeked, and now doesn't work, remove movement. yes. "There is simply NO excuse for putting up a faulty code and leaving it for two weeks while the entire testing process suffers dramatically because of it. There is just no excuse at all for that." yes. But what if the community and Dev's want to keep it? "If the devs are so adament about keeping it, fine. Remove it, fix it, put it back up."
no problems!

Labyrinth

10-26-2009, 11:18 PM

Retarded examples aside,
When the person you're debating with resorts to shrugging aside a point with "retarded examples aside," you know it's a good time to stop. :|

1st off, I would like to say that by itself, my opinion means nothing. (and I'm pretty sure I will be quoted on this)
2ndly, If their are, as previously claimed, +2000 people visiting the sight a day, and *some* ratio of those that approve rubberBanding measures, to those that do not, let their be a vote. Really, everyone votes once per account\per email\per IP. That could decide the actual opnion of the people. (not that that neccessarily counts for much, but it is more substancial that my opinion)
3rdly as Colt556 quoted earlier, "Can it be tweaked, fixed, and upgraded BEFORE putting it on the server and forgetting about it? Since that's the major thing. If the devs are so adament about keeping it, fine. Remove it, fix it, put it back up. If it still doesn't work, remove it. There is simply NO excuse for putting up a faulty code and leaving it for two weeks while the entire testing process suffers dramatically because of it. There is just no excuse at all for that. "
Ok, I have a GREAT SOLUTION THAT SOLVES ALL YOUR PROBLEMS!
since it can't be tweeked, and now doesn't work, remove movement. yes. "There is simply NO excuse for putting up a faulty code and leaving it for two weeks while the entire testing process suffers dramatically because of it. There is just no excuse at all for that." yes. But what if the community and Dev's want to keep it? "If the devs are so adament about keeping it, fine. Remove it, fix it, put it back up."
no problems!
:)

Colt-556

10-26-2009, 11:20 PM

Actually, from posts in this thread, there's been several polls made about this topic. And as far as I know almost all of them, if not all of them, voted to remove it, atleast until it was in half-working condition.

P.S. If you wanna believe that, Lab, but us making up stupid examples is just retarded and I wont use that as the sole source of an arguement. If you wanna keep making examples, go ahead.

Labyrinth

10-26-2009, 11:23 PM

P.S. If you wanna believe that, Lab, but us making up stupid examples is just retarded and I wont use that as the sole source of an arguement. If you wanna keep making examples, go ahead.
Have fun in college!

Or did you decide to not go there because it harmed your fun level?

Yyss'a

10-26-2009, 11:28 PM

Depends, is the fixed version on the TC? Is everyone still suffering from a broken anti-hack? If so, then no, we can't stop. As I have said, if it's being worked on, GREAT, but until it's ready remove this broken one. There's no excuse to keep it up and make the ENTIRE community suffering, the very process of testing itself suffering from this. It aint like you have to worry about people speed-hacking in the time before the revised version is finished. Cuz even if they do, two words (or is it three?) DATABASE WIPE. So the hackers getting a couple days/weeks of freedom really doesn't matter, since in the end everything we do will be wiped. However in that time everyone else will be able to move normally. I have yet to see any sort of justification to keep the broken code on the server until the revised code is finished.

I must have missed the part where the entire community elected you to speak in its name, Colt-556?

As an officer of my guild, I can assure with certainty that all of its 25+ members manage to have a fun testing time alright, even with the rubberbanding. And what of the fact that the server reaches its full capacity every single day of the week? That says a lot about the players' resolve at using the TC as it is.

Next time you go make demands in the name of the whole community, please make sure you get elected or it will be my pleasure and honor to put back that Egotist Usurper hat on your head.

On the other hand, if you find a way to get yourself elected as this community's voice in that matter, I'll see that as democracy.

This is not about removing or keeping the anti-hack code. It is about respecting everyone. We all can speak for ourselves and you have no right to take that from us.

Colt-556

10-26-2009, 11:32 PM

I must have missed the part where the entire community elected you to speak in its name, Colt-556?

Your whole argumentation based on the fact that we should be helped out of our suffering is therefore a fallacy and a gruesome attempt at manipulating reality.

As an officer of my guild, I can assure with certainty that all of its 25+ members manage to have a fun testing time alright, even with the rubberbanding. And what of the fact that the server reaches its full capacity every single day of the week? That says a lot about the players' resolve at using the TC as it is.

Next time you go make demands in the name of the whole community, please make sure you start with asking us what we think or it will be my pleasure and honor to put back that Egotist Usurper hat on your head.

On the other hand, if you find a way to get yourself elected as this community's voice in that matter, I'll see that as democracy.

You think that just because people still play that somehow underminds my arguement? Even I still get on and manage to amuse myself. That doesn't mean I'd like to see the rubberbanding stay. You're mistaking tolerance with acceptance. And I speak of what I see, and I'm ALWAYS seeing countless people ***** and moan about the rubberbanding, saying how they wish it wasn't around. Obviously I don't speak for the hundreds of people that play, but when I'm constantly bombardment with complaints, and never any praise, I have to estimate the general feeling towards this feature.

Go and ask your guild-mates "Would you mind if rubberbanding was removed", or hell if you wanna get more detailed "Do you WANT the rubberbanding removed". Since again, tolerance is NOT acceptance.

Labyrinth

10-26-2009, 11:35 PM

You think that just because people still play that somehow underminds my arguement? Even I still get on and manage to amuse myself. That doesn't mean I'd like to see the rubberbanding stay. You're mistaking tolerance with acceptance. And I speak of what I see, and I'm ALWAYS seeing countless people ***** and moan about the rubberbanding, saying how they wish it wasn't around. Obviously I don't speak for the hundreds of people that play, but when I'm constantly bombardment with complaints, and never any praise, I have to estimate the general feeling towards this feature.

Go and ask your guild-mates "Would you mind if rubberbanding was removed", or hell if you wanna get more detailed "Do you WANT the rubberbanding removed". Since again, tolerance is NOT acceptance.
Funny how you ended the argument with me because you were "bored" and yet you're still debating.

I think the reason becomes more and more obvious by the moment.

Colt-556

10-26-2009, 11:38 PM

Yyss'a

10-26-2009, 11:38 PM

Colt-556

10-26-2009, 11:43 PM

Even if my guild mates told me "sure we'd like this and that to be done", that does not give you the right to speak in my name or anyone's name that haven't given their official acceptance as you for spokesperson.

Keep the hat, it's the right size.

I will keep the hat, thanks. But just for the record, I'm not speaking in your name. Only time I'm speaking in anyones name is if they fall under the category of 'wants this gone' :)

Labyrinth

10-26-2009, 11:44 PM

I ended THAT arguement with you simply because I was using it as amusement, and when it got boring I quit. This arguement however, is something I wanna see happen, because rubberbanding is truly an issue that needs to be dealt with. Not simply have a half-assed "it's being dealt with" answer associated with it.
Then how come you shrugged off a perfectly valid example, something that is the only means of real communication humans have, as "a retarded/stupid example" without even bothering to say why you thought it was so?

Arguing IS making examples. I would have thought this was obvious from the start. If not, well...it's a wonder I'm still here. It must be because you're still so adamant about something that doesn't even make sense (per the countless arguments that have been put against it - if you'll notice, the people agreeing with you are few and far between) and are shoving your viewpoint down other people's throats like a religious preacher (hmm, I wonder where I've heard that one before).

I will keep the hat, thanks. But just for the record, I'm not speaking in your name. Only time I'm speaking in anyones name is if they fall under the category of 'wants this gone' :)
I can't find my pencil

Colt-556

10-26-2009, 11:48 PM

Labyrinth

10-26-2009, 11:51 PM

I was sick of the example spam, I made an example, you made one, I made one, you made one. Was retarded. And it wouldn't have made sense if I responded only to go "no more".

As for people agreeing with me, I can count the number of people I've seen for the rubberbanding on one hand, I can't even count the ammount of people I've seen who want it gone. So maybe we are the minority, but if that's the case I asked, where's the majority? Cuz I don't see em.
I may as well spam this from now on because it's pretty much what you've been doing the whole time:
I can't find my pencil
Oh and in case you have trouble grasping what I mean, I'm saying you're missing the point. There.

Yyss'a

10-27-2009, 12:02 AM

Fair enough.

I just want to know if I get correctly what you are asking for?

What you meant to say is, you believe that it would be better if no part of this community, big or small, suffer from a measure that isn't proven to be effective. In that regard, you would like to see proof that the measure is currently effective or even better, being improved, or therefore removed so no one has to suffer from it?

Did I get it right? If not, make sure to correct me because I am just trying to clarify, not speaking for you.

Now, my argumentation.

We are here to participate as testers on a project led by SWGEmu's developers and staffs. The TC we log on in is their property, they pay the bills for everything it needs (even though they are being helped through benevolent donations).

Being a tester on the TC is a privilege, not a right. We are invited to party in the SWGEmu's castle in the trees, their own private property and they make the rules.

If they believe that they need the anti-hack system on to do their job the best, their job being sacrificing part of their lives to make SWGEmu work at pre-cu level, I will gladly comply.

I already am grateful for the chance I had to revisit the Galaxy because without the SWGEmu core staff, it might never had happened at all.

Aren't you grateful for that, Colt?

Colt-556

10-27-2009, 12:10 AM

You got it right.

As for your arguement, I was told the anti-hack was only added because the community whined about speed-hackers, not because the devs themselves really cared. And even so, the facts are the facts, rubberbanding inhibits testing, it slows down our testing capabilities if it doubles the time necessary to move places. That's just a cold hard fact. Now ontop of that, it's PROVEN not to work, otherwise they wouldn't be fixing it. So while it's their right to choose what to do, the question is "why?" The current anti-hack doesn't work, no one really likes it, why not simply remove it? The database will be wiped so anything gained through hacking wont last.

Once the anti-hack is in a working state, re-add it, it's all good. NO ONE is saying there shouldn't be an anti-hack, they're saying that if there's going to be one, make sure it works, or atleast doesn't hurt everyone.

And obviously I'm grateful, I wouldn't be playing it, and campaigning to remove a blight-filled feature if I wasn't :|

Yyss'a

10-27-2009, 12:23 AM

Formulated that way, I wish to shake hands with you, Colt. Let's hope the whole situation improves as fast as can be, as best as can be. Let's put the mean hat back in the closet, since it wouldn't fit on you anymore.

Maybe filing bug reports on how the anti-hack system behaves with current testing could prove a very constructive way to make things better? I get that the anti-hack system is part of the server's dynamic, I can't see why we cannot report it all the same when it does bug.

Colt-556

10-27-2009, 12:36 AM

Reporting isn't necessary, EVERYONE knows how crap it is, even the devs (hence why they're fixing it). Just wish they'd remove it so we could roam around in peace before the fixed version was added.

syrge

10-27-2009, 12:36 AM

As for your arguement, I was told the anti-hack was only added because the community whined about speed-hackers, not because the devs themselves really cared.

And there is the big point in the disscussion if you want to call it that the masses cried stop the speed hackers and the dev's did as the masses wanted.

I for one dont find it unplayable but that is me yes sometimes it is annoying to get slingshot 100m one way then 100m another.Though i have found a simple solution to your problem if you find it that bad stop playing.

Take a break come back when the server is live and the bugs glitches and hopefully the exploits are gone.If that isnt good enough for you then i have no idea what to tell you.:banghead:

Lobreeze

10-27-2009, 12:38 AM

And even so, the facts are the facts, rubberbanding inhibits testing, it slows down our testing capabilities if it doubles the time necessary to move places.

You're facts are anecdotal and hearsay. I hardly ever rubberband, your internet just sucks.

It doesn't take double the time to do things, again, numbers and stats pulled from thin air.

BTW whining != campaigning. If you have to google '!=' then you can never say another word about anything code based and what is good or not.

EDIT:

Ha google won't even tell you

As for your arguement, I was told the anti-hack was only added because the community whined about speed-hackers, not because the devs themselves really cared.

And there is the big point in the disscussion if you want to call it that the masses cried stop the speed hackers and the dev's did as the masses wanted.

I for one dont find it unplayable but that is me yes sometimes it is annoying to get slingshot 100m one way then 100m another.Though i have found a simple solution to your problem if you find it that bad stop playing.

Take a break come back when the server is live and the bugs glitches and hopefully the exploits are gone.If that isnt good enough for you then i have no idea what to tell you.

Make sure you read that twice, colt.

Colt-556

10-27-2009, 12:50 AM

Why should I leave and wait for months, maybe even years until the emu is finished just because of some broken piece of code that could easily be removed? That's retarded.

And Breeze, the community may have asked for an anti-hack, they didn't ask for a BROKEN anti-hack that effected everyone. Again, no ones saying there shouldn't be an anti-hack, we're saying remove the broken one until it's fixed.

P.S. Whining isn't the same as campaigning, but I'm not whining ;D

Lobreeze

10-27-2009, 12:52 AM

Yes. You are whining.

You should leave and come back because you are so clearly distraught over this. Its been said the anti speedhack isn't going anywhere.

Best get used to it, you really aren't helping your case rageposting about it.

And please stop speaking like the whole community has appointed you Anti Speedhack Czar. You speak for yourself, nothing more.

Colt-556

10-27-2009, 12:53 AM

Yes. You are whining.

You should leave and come back because you are so clearly distraught over this. Its been said the anti speedhack isn't going anywhere.

Best get used to it, you really aren't helping your case rageposting about it.

The anti-speedhack SHOULDN'T go anywhere, the BROKEN one should :)

Lobreeze

10-27-2009, 12:55 AM

It will once its ready. As has been said multiple times. Deal with it just like everyone else. Time to put the big boy pants on and start acting like a grown up.

Now stop already with the

:deadhorse:

If other people can deal with it so can you. Seriously.

Colt-556

10-27-2009, 01:00 AM

Again, as I said recently, I'll even put it in a format you may enjoy. Tolerance != Acceptance. Just because myself and everyone else tolerates it and continues to play does NOT mean it should stay. It serves zero purpose, and only pisses people off. Even if we're tolerating it, and will continue to tolerate it (because we enjoy the game as a whole, and one bull****, broken feature wont drive us away) doesn't mean the devs should just let us suffer until the fix is ready. ESPECIALLY when we have no idea when it'll be fixed. Rubberbanding has been like this for two weeks, how much longer? Another two weeks? A month? Longer? Just remove it so we can actually play without getting frustrated every few minutes, not like any harm can be done in it's absence.

Lobreeze

10-27-2009, 01:03 AM

So come back when its fixed. Again, its been said multiple times its not going to get turned off.

What exactly are you trying to accomplish? You keep repeating yourself with the same weak arguments.

There are really only two options:

1) Suck it up
2) Dont log in

Someone else will gladly take your spot and enjoy it too! Cursing in posts is childish as well, we're not in the schoolyard here at lunchtime.... lols. You really know how to make people not take you seriously.

Labyrinth

10-27-2009, 01:05 AM

Colt-556

10-27-2009, 01:06 AM

It'd probably be a good idea for you to read what others have been saying. And if it isn't making any sense, read it again. And again, until you actually decide to comprehend, instead of just copy/pasting the same words over and over again.

Considering the ONLY people I see opposing me on this are you and Breeze... yeah....

And Breeze, again, I wont quit the game because of an easily fixed broken feature, sorry but getting rid of me isn't that easy.

Labyrinth

10-27-2009, 01:07 AM

Considering the ONLY people I see opposing me on this are you and Breeze... yeah....
And this is relevant because...?

According to your statistical arguments, we must be right, considering that it's 2 against 1.

Lobreeze

10-27-2009, 01:08 AM

Reading is tuff Labyrinth

Regurgitating is not.

According to your statistical arguments, we must be right, considering that it's 2 against 1.

Statistics man!!!

Bad arguments are bad. I think Colt has done enough self defamation here for this to be moot.

Colt-556

10-27-2009, 01:12 AM

Except, using statistics I could count around a dozen people in this thread all agreeing with me, against you two. So 6 to 1 odds, statistics :)

Bostwain

10-27-2009, 01:13 AM

:deadhorse: is becoming :deadhorse: we need something new.

Labyrinth

10-27-2009, 01:14 AM

Reading is tuff Labyrinth

Regurgitating is not.

Statistics man!!!

Bad arguments are bad. I think Colt has done enough self defamation here for this to be moot.
Sad, but true.

I really wish I could say obvious troll is obvious, but alas, I think he's serious and has been the whole time. :(

Lobreeze

10-27-2009, 01:15 AM

Except, using statistics I could count around a dozen people in this thread all agreeing with me, against you two. So 6 to 1 odds, statistics :)

Here an idea, go start another thread about this. Even better, make it a poll! Its funny/sad because this seems like its the most attention anyone has ever paid attention to him in his whole life. I for one am done. Now if only I had a colt IRL I could shoot myself for participating in this nonsense. We should have all stopped when we busted him lying. Or "mistyping" w/e he wants to call it.

Labyrinth

10-27-2009, 01:18 AM

:deadhorse: is becoming :deadhorse: we need something new.
How bout this?
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Q9489HJjO7Q/SgRlIw-7cEI/AAAAAAAABn4/IKaJhA8xTe4/s400/beating-dead-horse.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfCYzJAgwrw

Colt-556

10-27-2009, 01:19 AM

:deadhorse: is becoming :deadhorse: we need something new.

Well if it didn't take two weeks or longer for something to be done......... I mean seriously, it doesn't take two weeks to come up with a fix, regardless of what it is. They coulda outrighted removed the code in a couple days, or ATLEAST come up with a temp-fix until they fixed it outright. Like I've been saying, there's just no excuse to put up broken code and forget about it :/

Lobreeze

10-27-2009, 01:21 AM

Man you are such a spoiled little bratt. Unbelievable... Kids these days. Such a misplaced sense of entitlement. I feel sorry for the CSR that have to deal with this on a daily basis.

Colt-556

10-27-2009, 01:23 AM

Man you are such a spoiled little bratt. Unbelievable......

Not spoiled, seriously why are you SO against removing a feature that doesn't help anything, and only hurts everything? I'm starting to wonder if you're not simply bored and looking for someone to argue with. Because I honestly can't see how you can defend it, even if YOU don't suffer from it, hundreds of others do. How do you defend a feature that does nothing but work against the community AND the devs?

Lobreeze

10-27-2009, 01:25 AM

You're the one freaking out about it, not me. Stop trolling and go for a walk or something. You need to chill out. You're downright mean in 90% of your posts (statistics man!) not even sarcastic just rude and angry. You maybe need to get less... excited... about all of this. It has gone past the point of debating into /facroll <post reply>

You're just repeating yourself now, reasons have been stated on why its staying. You may not agree, but those are the facts that you are so fond of stating. If you dont want to read them, fine. But stop repeating yourself just for arguments stake. There are better ways to spend your time then screaming about something you don't like while generalizing and practically appointing yourself community speaker.

SolidSuperGrunt

10-27-2009, 03:16 AM

Ok first off I don't know all of what has been said on this matter, but I do see how I am affected by this. I am not upset with the Devs for the rubber banding and actually agree that it is a better alternative. I just wish that it didn't affect me as much as it does right now. I have a pretty slow internet connection and when ever I play I get rubber banded a lot due to lag. I just wish some people hadn't decided to cheat to get ahead, so that this wasn't needed.

Colt-556

10-27-2009, 03:28 AM

Yhor

10-27-2009, 04:03 AM

Actually, Breeze, the ONLY reason I've seen as to why the rubberbanding should be kept is...... um... hmmm..... Actually I haven't seen a reason given. I only ever see "it's staying", never WHY someone would decide on keeping a broken anti-hack on a server that's gonna be wiped.

The reason the "anti hack program" is left in is to stop script kiddies from "speed hacking". "The community" wanted a fix for "speed hacking" and we all got it.

Although I think it needs to be part of the emulator, like BH droids, CH profession, JTL, housing / harvesters, etc..., imo it should be fixed before being permanently implemented.

Am I able to test with rubberbanding in TC? Sure I am, but it would be less frustrating to test if it weren't implemented until fixed.

The bottom line is this, if the devs want to implement something, it gets implemented, and vice versa. It doesn't make it right, it makes this alpha project testing center their own, not the property of the community. As much as I wish we all could have a say, they've made it known that our say (the community) can have consequences, such as broken "fixes" to apply as duct tape to shut up other subjects of "whining"... so be careful what you ask for.

Darkwing

10-27-2009, 06:12 AM

I wonder if the formula used is as simple as
Distance=Squareroot((end_X - start_X)^2+(end_Y - start_Y)^2)

And Distance then is compared to distances you should be able to travel normally or with some effect active (like forcerun).
In that case wouldn't it be possible to allow for a slightly larger distance than normally to compensate for lag?
I know it would allow for a minimal amount of speedhacking, but it would also be more forgiving to all of us, wouldn't it?

(Disclaimer: I am not a programmer so I really don't know what I'm talking about :p)

Colt-556

10-27-2009, 04:38 PM

The reason the "anti hack program" is left in is to stop script kiddies from "speed hacking". "The community" wanted a fix for "speed hacking" and we all got it.

Although I think it needs to be part of the emulator, like BH droids, CH profession, JTL, housing / harvesters, etc..., imo it should be fixed before being permanently implemented.

Am I able to test with rubberbanding in TC? Sure I am, but it would be less frustrating to test if it weren't implemented until fixed.

The bottom line is this, if the devs want to implement something, it gets implemented, and vice versa. It doesn't make it right, it makes this alpha project testing center their own, not the property of the community. As much as I wish we all could have a say, they've made it known that our say (the community) can have consequences, such as broken "fixes" to apply as duct tape to shut up other subjects of "whining"... so be careful what you ask for.

Eh, keeping hackers from hacking in an alpha version that's on a test server that's going to be wiped really isn't a reason to keep a broken anti-hack, that effects EVERYONE, on the server.

And I know the devs are primarily doing this to spite us, teaching us a lesson "be careful what you wish for". But even so, we've learned, or some of have. And hell, some of us weren't even around when that nonsense went down, why must the new people have to suffer for the mistakes made by others? All in all, after two weeks of dealing with a retarded broken anti-hack, I think it's time to remove it.

Timbab

10-27-2009, 04:45 PM

Damn it people....

hackers =/= scriptkiddies

BIG difference

corbaer

10-27-2009, 04:46 PM

Devs/Admins do what's best for development... you may disagree with their decision, but I assure you it has nothing to do with spite - or your needs/wants tbh.

Colt-556

10-27-2009, 04:52 PM

Devs/Admins do what's best for development... you may disagree with their decision, but I assure you it has nothing to do with spite - or your needs/wants tbh.

Oh, most of the time that's true. But explain to me how slowing down EVERYTHING (because if people move slow, it takes them longer to do things, which makes it slower to test), all for the sake of preventing people from hacking to get ahead, in a server that's gonna be wiped, helps development. Please, explain how that works.

Labyrinth

10-27-2009, 04:59 PM

Oh, most of the time that's true. But explain to me how slowing down EVERYTHING (because if people move slow, it takes them longer to do things, which makes it slower to test), all for the sake of preventing people from hacking to get ahead, in a server that's gonna be wiped, helps development. Please, explain how that works.
Please explain how you ever had any argument at all. You're just pulling facts out of your ass and repeating them again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again...

You do realize that by the time you're finished *****ing about this, they probably will have finished testing the algorithm, fixed rubberbanding, finished the OR, and released SunCrusher....and then you'll still be repeating it because of getting yourself caught in an endless, broken-record-like loop.

corbaer

10-27-2009, 05:11 PM

To tweak a system involving lag, you must tweak it on a system experiencing the lag. ITC doesn't lag the same way that TC does.

Lobreeze

10-27-2009, 05:11 PM

Laby just stop man theres no point in arguing with the guy. Just let him cry himself to sleep and this will all be a thing of the past soon. Don't give this guy the satisfaction of you feeding his need for attention.

The devs will have this sorted soon and all will be well.

Kayliaah

10-27-2009, 05:13 PM

Damn this thread got so boring. :(

corbaer

10-27-2009, 05:14 PM

http://www.coolfunnyshirts.com/ImageBank/ThumbNoBoringW.png

Timbab

10-27-2009, 05:16 PM

Damn this thread got so boring. :(

Sadly...

Colt-556

10-27-2009, 05:28 PM

To tweak a system involving lag, you must tweak it on a system experiencing the lag. ITC doesn't lag the same way that TC does.

See, that's the first answer I've EVER heard that makes sense. Actually, it's the first answer I've ever heard in regards to keeping it up. Thanks for finally clearing it up.

corbaer

10-27-2009, 06:18 PM

Sorry, I really did think that was obvious... my mistake.

For future reference. Testing is done on ITC until testing on ITC is no longer useful, then testing is moved to TC:Nova... when TC:SC is opened... there will be a third link in that chain.

Devs/Admins want you to have a terrific testing experience within the context of what is practical for the needs of development with the limited resources that a volunteer effort provides. If development needs to hinder the fun of players, it will... keep it in mind and you will have a general understanding of most, if not all dev/admin decisions throughout this process.

Colt-556

10-27-2009, 07:06 PM

corbaer

10-27-2009, 07:16 PM

Just as a follow up, and this is not meant to be pointed or mean... but honestly the devs should be given the benefit of the doubt in general. They really do just want to get this done... they're all very intelligent and thoughtful in the decisions that are made, while they do make mistakes - they usually know that they did before the torches and pitchforks come out.

It's one thing to communicate with the community on a frequent basis, and completely another to have to answer every question, especially the ones that need to be reduced to lamens in a contorted way to make people have some reasonable understanding.

Sometimes it's hard to remember what the masses might not just inherently "get", when it seems obvious to yourself. That's something that all the staff and volunteers need to constantly remind themselves of, and the community should also try to keep in mind.

Everyone here is learning all the time.