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-   -   TC Bulletin and Policy Change 10/18/09 (http://archive.swgemu.com/forums//showthread.php?t=33698)

Kyle 10-18-2009 11:09 PM

TC Bulletin and Policy Change 10/18/09
 
Hi Everyone,

We'd like to note a policy revision in our Test Center Rules and Policies.

Quote:

3.13 All forms of hacking, exploiting, and anything designed to break, bend or in anyway alter or skew SWGEmu gameplay experience in favor of one player or against another player is encouraged within strict guidelines.
3.13.1 All successful exploitations are to be reported to the "Exploitation Team", and not posted in public.
3.13.2 Exploitations will never be used to purposely gain advantage over another player or inflict a negative experience on another player. The only accepted instances of exploiting are those that are reported, and for the purpose of enhancing and securing future gameplay.
3.13.3 Failure to adhere to this policy will result in the following consequences. There will be one warning directing the guilty part to the exploitation team. After this one warning ALL subsequent transgressions will result in an immediate permanent ban with the ability to be appealed after three months and immediate deletion of all known characters, items, disbanding of guilds if guild leader, and removal of all items on the marketplace.
While we still are taking a hardline on exploiting, the staff realizes that during development, there is a need to expose problems before we can enact the Zero-Tolerance policy as needed on a finished server.

With this announcement, we are officially organizing the Exploitation Team as a part of our Quality Assurance team. They will have the sole purpose of uncovering exploits and being a point of contact for community members that do find exploits. More information will be released on this team in the coming weeks.

To clear up a sore subject now that we have all the facts, I would like to address the recent banning of a known exploiting guild. Contrary to public belief and statements made by staff members, no one was able to exploit their way to jedi. The community member in question, Ashur, has in fact been extremely helpful in helping uncover serious Test Center flaws and is part of our Exploitation Team, but due to some communication breakdowns has received an unfair reputation. He did in fact get caught speed hacking, but was immediately cooperative. The subsequent reports are untrue. He was accused of speed hacking publicly, when in fact it was a legitimate use of FR3 which, like many of the jedi skills, are getting there first real tests and many are very bugged and broken. A number of the other members of the guild will continue to stay banned permanently because of their unwillingness to cooperate and immaturity in the matter, but a handful of the mature, and talented members have chosen to leave the Dark Side, and use their powers for good. Please welcome these people and treat them accordingly.

To reiterate the previous post, behavior from the community, and sadly, even staff,will no longer be tolerated when it is designed to undermine the project or community.

Regards,

TAfirehawk 10-18-2009 11:12 PM

Very nice adjustments, I hope the Community sees this as continued improvement as we move towards v1.00

Tipical 10-18-2009 11:31 PM

So was this like an amendment to the zero tolerance policy that it's actually okay?

GestorterEngel 10-18-2009 11:32 PM

With all due respect, this post simply seems like it's saying "Hey, if you hack, come apologize to us, work with us, and we'll unban you."

I simply don't understand it... If someone is caught exploiting (and I think I'm not the only one who'll agree with this) they shouldn't be brought back. Is he back, or is he just working with the team?

What's to say Ashur won't be doing this again? Will he be watched to make sure? Is this how everyone else will be treated that cooperates with you for exploiting?

Bostwain 10-18-2009 11:36 PM

I just reread the ashur part. I am utterly speechless. So the first person to find an exploit in a way is rewarded then?

EDIT: Also who is to say now that ashor is on your exploitation team that he will not do so unnoticed because now hes a figure of authority? I just don't understand this move at all. Seriously.

EDIT2: Moral of the story is if you're going to hack, make sure you're friends with the devs first so you don't have any serious consequences?

StoneInc 10-18-2009 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gestorterengel (Post 440276)
with all due respect, this post simply seems like it's saying "hey, if you hack, come apologize to us, work with us, and we'll unban you."

i simply don't understand it... If someone is caught exploiting (and i think i'm not the only one who'll agree with this) they shouldn't be brought back. Is he back, or is he just working with the team?

What's to say ashur won't be doing this again? Will he be watched to make sure? Is this how everyone else will be treated that cooperates with you for exploiting?

+111111
Quote:

Originally Posted by bostwain (Post 440278)
i guess we'll be seeing ashor in 2 months and 3 weeks then won't we?

+1111111

DefectedBac 10-18-2009 11:48 PM

Ever watch a movie with a "bad guy" doing something for the cops? What do you see him doing when the cops aren't watching? The same old stuff.

Bostwain 10-18-2009 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DefectedBac (Post 440286)
Ever watch a movie with a "bad guy" doing something for the cops? What do you see him doing when the cops aren't watching? The same old stuff.

This is more like catch me if you can...

He got caught, now hes one of them again.. but just like in catch me if you can, he'll relapse..

Thoop 10-18-2009 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GestorterEngel (Post 440276)
With all due respect, this post simply seems like it's saying "Hey, if you hack, come apologize to us, work with us, and we'll unban you."

I simply don't understand it... If someone is caught exploiting (and I think I'm not the only one who'll agree with this) they shouldn't be brought back.

It is more of a, "Hey, if you hack, you are going to work with us so that we can prevent other people from hacking if they use the same method. Otherwise we're going to ban you and delete all your stuff."

Since we are still in development stages and there are still going to be wipes, the main goal is to write code that will prevent these hacks. So if we can do it now, before we get to v1.0, then that is beneficial to all of us after v1.0.

The main point being, we are still in development and we want to write code to prevent people from using these hacks. We are trying to improve our code to make it so these hacks will be of no use.

Bostwain 10-18-2009 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thoop (Post 440288)
It is more of a, "Hey, if you hack, you are going to work with us so that we can prevent other people from hacking if they use the same method. Otherwise we're going to ban you and delete all your stuff."

Since we are still in development stages and there are still going to be wipes, the main goal is to write code that will prevent these hacks. So if we can do it now, before we get to v1.0, then that is beneficial to all of us after v1.0.

The main point being, we are still in development and we want to write code to prevent people from using these hacks. We are trying to improve our code to make it so these hacks will be of no use.

So now is ashor recieving his jedi and progress back or does he have to restart?

GestorterEngel 10-18-2009 11:55 PM

My problem isn't with him helping you guys by far, but moreso if he's allowed to come back the concern of him doing this again and it being overlooked, or him secretly helping his friends out to achieve certain things and being overlooked. I just don't think it's acceptable to allow these people back into game and possibly do what they got in trouble for to begin with.

Thoop 10-18-2009 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bostwain (Post 440291)
So now is ashor recieving his jedi and progress back or does he have to restart?

I don't deal with any of that so I have no clue. I'm just talking about the development side of the project.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GestorterEngel
My problem isn't with him helping you guys by far, but moreso if he's allowed to come back the concern of him doing this again and it being overlooked, or him secretly helping his friends out to achieve certain things and being overlooked. I just don't think it's acceptable to allow these people back into game and possibly do what they got in trouble for to begin with.

Like I said, we are going to prevent the hacks he used from working through code. That way he (or anyone else) will not be able to use them.

roodypooh 10-18-2009 11:58 PM

LMAO so basically for hacking AND GRIEFING people in the community who were trying to get thier jedi get rewarded with a kiss and given a position on the staff.

So much for the change you guys were implimenting....faith unrestored

hozsnoop 10-19-2009 12:00 AM

I guess this isn't a rule then
http://www.swgemu.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33216

Bostwain 10-19-2009 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thoop (Post 440295)
I don't deal with any of that so I have no clue. I'm just talking about the development side of the project.

Can you please find out and let us know because there are MANY objections for him being able to just all of a sudden be back to where he was. :|

GestorterEngel 10-19-2009 12:03 AM

It does seem like this could be a huge problem if he is let back into the community. I've already had +5 people on vent and more in game talking about quitting if this happens. It seems like it could put a huge damper on the community if this is allowed for Ashor, and other people.

Bostwain 10-19-2009 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roodypooh (Post 440297)
LMAO so basically for hacking AND GRIEFING people in the community who were trying to get thier jedi get rewarded with a kiss and given a position on the staff again.

So much for the change you guys were implimenting....faith unrestored

fixed.

This move is almost as good as SOE announcing the NGE.

So does this mean if I was to pioneer a hack/exploit, get what I want... then tell you about it and help you prevent anyone else from doing it, i would be rewarded with a staff position too?

Tolbat 10-19-2009 12:09 AM

I know some of you have personal opinions of various people involved, however you may not know the full story. I ask that you have patience and trust in our staff members, and developers.

That said, I am sure that if anyone who is unbanned is caught exploiting or hacking for personal gain then they will receive the maximum punishment.

No one is above the rules here.

Thanks.

Tolbat

roodypooh 10-19-2009 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GestorterEngel (Post 440303)
It does seem like this could be a huge problem if he is let back into the community. I've already had +5 people on vent and more in game talking about quitting if this happens. It seems like it could put a huge damper on the community if this is allowed for Ashor, and other people.

sadly this is the same talk goin on in our vent and i'm sure when the rest get on and hear about this alot more will say the same thing

GestorterEngel 10-19-2009 12:12 AM

My problem isn't personal at all. I'd have this problem with anyone who has hacked and was rewarded with a staff position and the ability to freely play the game again with no punishment. My concern is it repeating, and no one wants that to happen.

Anakis 10-19-2009 12:13 AM

As we are still in the Development phase, I don't see a zero-tolerance policy on exploiting being very helpful. From a Development perspective, we NEED players to find these exploits and hacks and inform us about them, so that we can code the server to prevent their use in the future live servers, like Thoop said.

We cannot have players being afraid to find and report such things out of fear of being banned/deleted. We all know that once this is live, there will be plenty of those types hacking away and disrupting play on a live server if they can. We need to find and fix these issues before we get there.

We are definitely not giving the green light here for the exploiters to run wild. What we are saying is that you won't be banned, no questions asked, if you perform an exploit on the TC.

How I interpret this policy change is like this. It is okay to perform an exploit on TC as long as:

1. Your actions are not griefing other players.

2. You immediately (and privately) report all details of how you performed the exploit to the appropriate staff and do not tell anyone else about it.

3. You DO NOT continue to perform the exploit on the TC, even after reporting it.


You find it, you report it, you keep quiet about it to your friends and you don't use it again.

Unfortunately, we have had staff members misbehave in the past. If you think that Staff are not watched for these sort of things, you are mistaken.

Bostwain 10-19-2009 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anakis (Post 440311)
As we are still in the Development phase, I don't see a zero-tolerance policy on exploiting being very helpful. From a Development perspective, we NEED players to find these exploits and hacks and inform us about them, so that we can code the server to prevent their use in the future live servers, like Thoop said.

We cannot have players being afraid to find and report such things out of fear of being banned/deleted. We all know that once this is live, there will be plenty of those types hacking away and disrupting play on a live server if they can. We need to find and fix these issues before we get there.

We are definitely not giving the green light here for the exploiters to run wild. What we are saying is that you won't be banned, no questions asked, if you perform an exploit on the TC.

How I interpret this policy change is like this. It is okay to perform an exploit on TC as long as:

1. Your actions are not griefing other players.

2. You immediately (and privately) report all details of how you performed the exploit to the appropriate staff and do not tell anyone else about it.

3. You DO NOT continue to perform the exploit on the TC, even after reporting it.


You find it, you report it, you keep quiet about it to your friends and you don't use it again.

Unfortunately, we have had staff members misbehave in the past. If you think that Staff are not watched for these sort of things, you are mistaken.

You think ashor immediately reported the explot everytime he hit his speed hack keybind? Also he did not just do it once. both of these making it not okay for what he did by your own words.

GestorterEngel 10-19-2009 12:21 AM

As Bostwain posted above. This person was repeatedly seen hacking, (I don't know if he ever reported it), but he did continuously do it, while griefing many many other players... So yes, somewhat by your own words, what he did wasn't okay...

Note that my only problem here is that he is allowed back into the community after this, with no punishment after (by your own words) doing 1-3.

That is my only concern and that is what I'm rather confused on.

kelharis 10-19-2009 12:24 AM

Is he, or any other member of the team being given information about the inner workings of how the EMU will detect hacks? Because this seems to me like a classic case of the fox guarding the hen house.

What guarantee will there be that these members of the exploitation team won't be simply figuring out how to avoid detection once SC goes live?

Anakis 10-19-2009 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bostwain (Post 440314)
You think ashor immediately reported the explot everytime he hit his speed hack keybind? Also he did not just do it once. both of these making it not okay for what he did by your own words.

I am not familiar with the details of what any one person or guild has done, so I can't really comment on his particular case.

But like Kyle said, they approached said persons and gave them the option to cooperate for the good of the project or be banned. It reminds me of how some of the most infamous hackers are hired by the companies they hacked, as security consultants.

Bostwain 10-19-2009 12:27 AM

Yes but wasn't ashor QA already before?

Thoop 10-19-2009 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kelharis (Post 440319)
Is he, or any other member of the team being given information about the inner workings of how the EMU will detect hacks? Because this seems to me like a classic case of the fox guarding the hen house.

What guarantee will there be that these members of the exploitation team won't be simply figuring out how to avoid detection once SC goes live?

This is the nature of all open source projects where the code is available online. We must take extra measures to ensure that we produce the greatest final product that we can. There are many extremely talented developers on this team coming up with great ways to prevent and detect these exploits. Any hacks or exploits that come to our attention will have a way of being prevented or detected. The "exploitation team" will not be above these detections.

SomeoneImportant 10-19-2009 12:40 AM

Goes to show with swgemu, as always..if your friends with the team, you'll get places. Even if you're in the wrong..Good going staff, 1 step forward, 5 steps back.

The community should take it into their own hands, anyone who was a part of the speedhacking to jedi, and anyone who continues to do so, should be hunted, killed, grieved, and overall their time on swgemu should be made hell.

hozsnoop 10-19-2009 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GestorterEngel (Post 440310)
My problem isn't personal at all. I'd have this problem with anyone who has hacked and was rewarded with a staff position and the ability to freely play the game again with no punishment. My concern is it repeating, and no one wants that to happen.

When it comes down to it. They have the right to do whatever they want because it's not our server, they own it. They just allow us to play on it. If they want to make a team to stop it i say great. If ashors going to help that's great too. But him and a few others sitting back and laughing at us posting on the forums, also great.. But to be fair if your going to let him back because of this you should let all of storm back with a warning. Fair is fair.

Bostwain 10-19-2009 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thoop (Post 440325)
This is the nature of all open source projects where the code is available online. We must take extra measures to ensure that we produce the greatest final product that we can. There are many extremely talented developers on this team coming up with great ways to prevent and detect these exploits. Any hacks or exploits that come to our attention will have a way of being prevented or detected. The "exploitation team" will not be above these detections.

Can you please show me where to obtain the source?

Also how do I go about joining this exploitation team? I would like to stop the exploitation going on... including what is about to start up again.

Kyle 10-19-2009 12:46 AM

If people leave, that is their loss. Recruiting people that can hack our systems is logical and necessary. And yes, this is an open invitation to anyone who wants to try and exploit / hack / crack / dupe / etc. If you can do any of these things, we have a place for you on the Exploitation Team. If you don't report it to the team, we will ban you forever, and delete your characters. Simple, easy, and for the good of the final product. This is a TC, and we need to find the exploits, can any of you complaining make a list of exploits? If the answer is yes, come join the team, if the answer is no, then realize that it's just a TC, and we want the final product to be as exploit proof as possible, and for that we need to hire the best exploiters. Ponder the logic before complaining further.

Bostwain 10-19-2009 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle (Post 440333)
If people leave, that is their loss. Recruiting people that can hack our systems is logical and necessary. And yes, this is an open invitation to anyone who wants to try and exploit / hack / crack / dupe / etc. If you can do any of these things, we have a place for you on the Exploitation Team. If you don't report it to the team, we will ban you forever, and delete your characters. Simple, easy, and for the good of the final product. This is a TC, and we need to find the exploits, can any of you complaining make a list of exploits? If the answer is yes, come join the team, if the answer is no, then realize that it's just a TC, and we want the final product to be as exploit proof as possible, and for that we need to hire the best exploiters. Ponder the logic before complaining further.

If you're serious where would you like me to contact you? Here in PMs or on IRC?

Thoop 10-19-2009 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bostwain (Post 440331)
Can you please show me where to obtain the source?

Also how do I go about joining this exploitation team? I would like to stop the exploitation going on... including what is about to start up again.

You can obtain any open source things you need from our assembla page here. As for joining the Exploitation Team, please PM an admin with an exploit and they will tell you what the next step will be.

Kyle 10-19-2009 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bostwain (Post 440335)
If you're serious where would you like me to contact you? Here in PMs or on IRC?

Dead serious, exploiters unite for the good for the good of the project. You can contact me on IRC.

hozsnoop 10-19-2009 12:58 AM

Do you have a different server to test exploits on like sql injection that might damage or crash it.

Kyle 10-19-2009 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hozsnoop (Post 440340)
Do you have a different server to test exploits on like sql injection that might damage or crash it.

Of course we do.

Leodextrin 10-19-2009 01:01 AM

/emote grabs popcorn and intently watches

let whatever happens, happen.

mijom 10-19-2009 01:02 AM

Is this Exploitation Team, Official staff position inside the QA? or more like the Support "helpers", unofficial volunteer position.

SomeoneImportant 10-19-2009 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hozsnoop (Post 440298)

So much for zero-tolerance. :|

Wolverine79 10-19-2009 01:19 AM

Complaining. Its a joke right. Seem there is a deep rooted corruption in this project. This whole project has really turned downhill. Some of the staff I think are really great. While others seem to be pure corrupt and abuse their power and letting friends do whatever they like.

Instead of covering up your corruption you just making open now. Letting hackers/exploiters to whatever they like because they are friends of staff. Ashur and storm got caught and others but now this a way to throw it back at the community that tried to stop it and hoping it would be fair but instead got just got attacked by the staff and now letting the same ones just hack/exploit and grief all they want. That staff member sit and chat with them about it knowing they were exploiting and hacking but was over looked because Ashur and crew is buddy with crush and kyle and other devs/staff.

They knew of the exploits and ran there hacks and was ok till the community started reporting it. This is how you deal with it. Just make it open now for them to cont. because they are friends of yours.

I and other have really have lost faith in this project. Trying to test and enjoy a fair and balanced for us all when letting others do what they want. When we try to report them we get threaten to mind our own business or be prema banned for it because it. I guess now no worries of that because your making so they can do as they like.

Btw you say no one exploited/hacked to jedi is bs man. You know he did and other but go ahead and try to cover it up. People aren't stupid as you think man. So if you wanna talk about corrupted staff and all take a look at yourself.

People like Ashur that are friend of you guys can say and do whatever they like knowing they can get away with it but people will open thier eyes and see its not just them but staff is also behind this. People do talk and leak out what you do also. It might just come back at you.


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