Rubber Banding / Speed Hacking - A Special (Unplanned) DevChat - 10/14/09 2am EST

[DraGa]

Originally Posted by Sixotoo

Would it be possible for the SWGEmu devs to make a server side run or movement command that we could use via a macro? We hit the macro button for run and the server makes our toon run until we send the command to stop. Then the client just kinda tags along. At least travel would be possible. and getting away from angry lairs

Oh, you mean what happens already when we hold the (walk forward) button on our keyboard?

NO, all the devs need to do is tweak it to be less sensitive. I'm curious as to why the rubberbanding hasn't decreased given it's been two weeks now.

[Alegis]

it may would be better to take this system out of the TC till they got the time to work in it.


Was 700meters away from theed for 5mins and now i tried to get to my lair for 15 times. It always warped me back if i reached the lair...

[Raavin]

I'm not sure how much the coding works, but I know anytime I've modded system changes for Oblivion I could disable what I was doing in case it was too sensitive. Then I could add it in for a few hours or days depending on how long I was testing it and get it to work so the way I wanted, and if I needed a break from the working I could turn it off and play.

I wonder is there any way to do that...

[Sixotoo]

Originally Posted by DraGa

Oh, you mean what happens already when we hold the (walk forward) button on our keyboard?

NO, it would be more like a /follow only with no actual toon to follow. The server would move us at the normal speed and the client would just tag along and steer.

[Colt-556]

This rubberbanding is rediculous, but the main problem with it is getting yanked back to a pack of mobs you're trying to escape. I know on more then one occasion I was running just to get yanked back endlessly, it was as if the game was TRYING to kill me. I don't know if it's possible, but if you could make the NPC's rubberband at the same rate players do, that'd go a long way to help. If I have to get yanked back to a previous position, why do the NPC's get to stay where they are?

[corbaer]

http://www.swgemu.com/forums/showpos...75&postcount=9

[Falconer]

Originally Posted by DraGa

I'm curious as to why the rubberbanding hasn't decreased given it's been two weeks now.

because nothing's been done, or atleast I haven't seen an announcement from a dev. They don't seem to be updating us much.

They said in the last policy change they were consitering removing the speed hack deterrent. and i believe 90% of the server population want's them to. The threat of a lifetime ban is enough for now.

I have a feeling that it is the tool causing the lag, everything was running so smoothly before it was put in. It seems like a program that is checking the movement speed of every person on would put extra stress on the server.

[Vlada]

Originally Posted by Falconer

because nothing's been done, or atleast I haven't seen an announcement from a dev. They don't seem to be updating us much.

They said in the last policy change they were consitering removing the speed hack deterrent. and i believe 90% of the server population want's them to. The threat of a lifetime ban is enough for now.

I have a feeling that it is the tool causing the lag, everything was running so smoothly before it was put in. It seems like a program that is checking the movement speed of every person on would put extra stress on the server.

99% can be for removing it, it will still be up to developers to decide, not the "community".

Why does everyone get the impression that this is a democracy? Only thing that matters is the project, everything else of little importance or completely unimportant.

[jfkocs]

This has got to stop, the game is untestable. Every time i enter combat and im trying to get someplace while running i constantly keep rubberbanding into the mob and end up dead. You need to figure out somethign different to prevent speed hacking. This is preventing players from testing the game let alone play it.

[Vlada]

Originally Posted by jfkocs

This has got to stop, the game is untestable.

I LOLed.

Originally Posted by jfkocs

Every time i enter combat and im trying to get someplace while running i constantly keep rubberbanding into the mob and end up dead.

I LOLed again.

Originally Posted by jfkocs

You need to figure out somethign different to prevent speed hacking. This is preventing players from testing the game let alone play it.

ROFLing from this one.

[corbaer]

Originally Posted by Falconer

because nothing's been done, or atleast I haven't seen an announcement from a dev. They don't seem to be updating us much.

They said in the last policy change they were consitering removing the speed hack deterrent. and i believe 90% of the server population want's them to. The threat of a lifetime ban is enough for now.

I have a feeling that it is the tool causing the lag, everything was running so smoothly before it was put in. It seems like a program that is checking the movement speed of every person on would put extra stress on the server.

http://www.swgemu.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=468

Originally Posted by cRush

Let me explain how the speed hack prevention works, and how it is causing rubberbanding occassionally (which if hasn't been noticed, it has improved drastically, and will only continue to improve until it is rarely noticeable).

Speed hacks work by modifying the client's local variable for telling the client how fast a player can move forward. As a player move's forward, his new position is sent to the server so that the server can keep track of where the client is going. Speed hack's simply modify this local variable by editing system memory. By increasing it to some arbitrarily large number, it allows the client to send larger distances covered, than they should be able to cover at the speed the server believes a player should be traversing.

For example:
Player's speed is set to 5 on the server. Player edits memory and sets it to 15. Now when player moves client side, all position updates sent to the server are increased by a factor of 3 greater than what they should be.

The fix:
In order to render speed hacks ineffective, we calculate how far a player should be able to move based on simple physics formulae. The distance traversed is directly proportional to speed and time.

We have begun calculation the max distance the client should be able to travel in this time, and bounce players back if they traverse farther than they should be able to. Hence rubber banding.

Anyone trying to speed hack with this enabled will rubber-band and not be able to speed hack anywhere.

The consequences:
Unfortunately, the equations are too precise, and do not account for lag. This is causing some players who are not speed hacking to just barely trip the detection, rubber banding them back to their last position. The greater the lag, the more frequent this occurs.

The future:
We have already outlined a new algorithm that should hopefully correct for lag, while still keeping speed hacking ineffective. We are testing it internally to make sure it doesn't make the situation worse before pushing it to TC. If it tests well internally, we will move it to TC where we hope it will hold up. If it doesn't, we will reinstate the old protection, and try again.

Why we can't just disable it and ban all speed hackers:
While in a perfect world, we could just ban anyone speed hacking, there are a couple reasons why this is impractical:
1) Lag can cause false positives from player perspective (players may appear to be speed hacking because of lag).
2) CSR's can't be actively monitoring every single player on the server looking for speed hackers.
3) Usually, speed hackers aren't caught until some damage has been done. It is a better method to prevent the damage being done in the first place.

So, please, accept our sincerest apologies of any rubberbanding. I seriously don't think anyone can claim it unplayable/untestable at this moment. I have spent considerable time myself in game, and barely rubberband - this has even led to some miscommunication that it is off. I assure you, it's not off. We are doing the best we can to improve it as quickly as possible, and it is in everyone's best interest that we do so.

It is actually a good thing that we are working to correct this issue now, rather than on SunCrusher when serious damage could have been made to the longevity of the server.

Thanks for understanding! Feel free to ask anymore questions you have concerning it. You can find me on IRC.

----

Originally Posted by jfkocs

This has got to stop, the game is untestable. Every time i enter combat and im trying to get someplace while running i constantly keep rubberbanding into the mob and end up dead. You need to figure out somethign different to prevent speed hacking. This is preventing players from testing the game let alone play it.

It seems to be capped, so others must be sticking around in the untestable environment. If it's untestable for you, perhaps do something else. I know I'll be having fun when I get home from work, testing in an untestable environment.

So it's not misconstrued... the preceding was not sarcastic, or in jest. Cope or peace.

[SirJMon]

Originally Posted by Vlada

99% can be for removing it, it will still be up to developers to decide, not the "community".

Why does everyone get the impression that this is a democracy? Only thing that matters is the project, everything else of little importance or completely unimportant.

Well I hope this isn't their line of thinking. Because if it is, this project will fail. This isn't business but it's still along the same lines, and if you ran a business like this, it would fail eventually. SOE learned that one real quick after they released NGE. They said piss on the community and look what happened. Just sayin'....

[corbaer]

Development and administration concerns will always take a front-seat to player happiness and comfort during development. After development - servers will be much more concerned with pleasing the masses with their daily (and often fickle) needs. Some sadly will be too appeasing I fear.

EDIT: To clarify, reaching a stable, efficient pre-cu server software is the primary goal and is all about pleasing the community. Many just do get teary-eyed when the people who know how to accomplish that goal need to do something that the community doesn't "enjoy".

[Furthur]

Loving the game! Loving what you all are doing! But i'm gonna go ahead and forfeit my testing status I'll be back when the rubber-banding is done away with. It is hard enough being able to craft a speeder and not use it, harvesters and such. (i know they are bugged its cool) Being flung 400m at a time, covering the equivalent of 4-5 times the distance to the mission each time I make a run.. I choose to clone instead of run back because its faster to die..heal my fatigue and wounds, re-buff and run out again then it is to walk back

Crafting? won't even bother..i grinded to novice WS/ART/AS/SW and finally got tired of waiting on my station to load. Harvesting? sure i can survey! but i rubberband all the way to the resource spawn and then AFK sample my way to resources.

bbl and i'll hope to test again!

[Falconer]

Originally Posted by Vlada

99% can be for removing it, it will still be up to developers to decide, not the "community".

Why does everyone get the impression that this is a democracy? Only thing that matters is the project, everything else of little importance or completely unimportant.

If this project was 100% funded by the development team, I would agree with you.