TC Bulletin and Policy Change 10/18/09

[torbjorn]

Originally Posted by rubadum

Cmon guys, give them a break. Remember the devs are unpaid people working for you, to bring something back which was once lost.

If you want to criticise and complain, go pay $13 a month to SWG Official, where you can compain all you like. Personally I applaud the work and decisions made by the EMU team, especially their resolve to listen to the criticisms of the community and make tough decisions when they have to.

Keep up the gr8 work.

They're not working for us at all.

On a side note, since you don't need me, or any of the other dozens of testers I know, I can just leave now and wait for suncrusher? You have an official testing team now, so we can all just leave and wait for 1.0 server code to be released.

I'm sure I, or my friends, are not the only people who are going to be leaving, and I guarantee you suncrusher will be empty when it goes live.

It's nice to know SoE is back to running this thing.

[mijom]

Originally Posted by torbjorn

You have an official testing team now.

They've had it for long time now, it's called QA. Your acting like they will be unbanning everyone who got banned instead of few select ones who will not be part of Official staff and are under monitoring.

Originally Posted by torbjorn

I guarantee you suncrusher will be empty when it goes live.

[torbjorn]

Originally Posted by mijom

They've had it for long time now, it's called QA. Your acting like they will be unbanning everyone who got banned instead of few select ones who will not be part of Official staff and are under monitoring.

Ashur was banned for speed hacking/exploiting while griefing a players.

why should he be unbanned?

[mpv]

Originally Posted by torbjorn

They're not working for us at all.

On a side note, since you don't need me, or any of the other dozens of testers I know, I can just leave now and wait for suncrusher? You have an official testing team now, so we can all just leave and wait for 1.0 server code to be released.

I'm sure I, or my friends, are not the only people who are going to be leaving, and I guarantee you suncrusher will be empty when it goes live.

It's nice to know SoE is back to running this thing.

You can't please all the people all of the time. You need to give the dev team a break and trust that they know what's best for the continued development effort.

What they have achieved so far is nothing short of spectacular and comparing them to SOE is a kick in the teeth they do not deserve.

As far as SunCrusher goes I disagree with you that it will be empty. I think it will be the best funded and most active server, with the strong probability that it will most accurately reflect the game as it was intended.

The current problem with hacking will hopefully be mostly addressed before live and with the development knowledge in this current team should give the best chance for future protection against hacking (imo).

[Ferren]

Originally Posted by torbjorn

I'm sure I, or my friends, are not the only people who are going to be leaving, and I guarantee you suncrusher will be empty when it goes live.

It's nice to know SoE is back to running this thing.

I lol'd for days

[Oru]

I think there has been some miss-communication. We are definitely listening to the community and that is why we were very serious about the zero-tolerancy towards the exploiters. After we made the decision, we have realized that this will hinder the project while we are in development. That being said we lighten the policy up so we give a second chance for them so they can help fill in these holes. However this does not mean they can cheat, grief or exploit anymore! These things will go privately and not on the public test center. In case they are caught again, we say goodbye to them for good.

I hope this will help understand why we have come to this decision. Besides our will to step up against hackers, this will benefit everyone in the long run.

[torbjorn]

Originally Posted by Oru

I think there has been some miss-communication. We are definitely listening to the community and that is why we were very serious about the zero-tolerancy towards the exploiters. After we made the decision, we have realized that this will hinder the project while we are in development. That being said we lighten the policy up so we give a second chance for them so they can help fill in these holes. However this does not mean they can cheat, grief or exploit anymore! These things will go privately and not on the public test center. In case they are caught again, we say goodbye to them for good.

I hope this will help understand why we have come to this decision. Besides our will to step up against hackers, this will benefit everyone in the long run.

This is chance number 3? maybe even a higher number? For ashur.

How many will he get? Editing the client is against the EULA (SoE's EULA), and that is what Ashur has been doing.

[Valkyra]

Originally Posted by Oru

I think there has been some miss-communication. We are definitely listening to the community and that is why we were very serious about the zero-tolerancy towards the exploiters. After we made the decision, we have realized that this will hinder the project while we are in development. That being said we lighten the policy up so we give a second chance for them so they can help fill in these holes. However this does not mean they can cheat, grief or exploit anymore! These things will go privately and not on the public test center. In case they are caught again, we say goodbye to them for good.

I hope this will help understand why we have come to this decision. Besides our will to step up against hackers, this will benefit everyone in the long run.

Frankly, I don't agree with any of this. At all.

Ok, so why was there no post of any kind made about this in the staff forum for the entire staff to decide upon? It's pretty much just what the higher-ups decided, as I only see them posting in this thread how this is a great idea.

Maybe people don't know this, but a ZERO-TOLERANCE policy is just that. ZERO tolerance. It doesn't mean you can just ban people then go back and say "Oh wait, let's unban these griefing hackers, OH WAIT! Let's give them a staff position to find our exploits! The community will never know."

These are not the kind of people to be given staff privileges to. Sosko, one of the leaders of STORM, crashed the SWGEmu ventrilo several times, harassed members via Ventrilo exploits, then he comes on the IRC and ban evades MANY times, spewing his slander, lies, and rage.

But wait, you guys see fit to not only UNBAN them (which goes against the policy we enstated as a TEAM in the first place), but give them staff positions, since OUR QA TEAM WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH IN FINDING EXPLOITS.

So let me get this straight again.

"I'm Ashur, a retard that loves to flame on the forums, cause a TON of grief in game too and I love hacking! I was banned because of this, but I kissed enough ass to not only get unbanned, but get a staff position too!"

That's EXACTLY how it seems.


There's so much wrong with this.

A. You don't just make such an important decision to those who have higher leverage in the staff.
B. You don't go back on a global policy that we all decided.
C. STORM guild is retarded, full of griefing hackers, EVERYONE KNOWS IT, and you unban them and give them staff positions.


...

This has to be the biggest troll of all time.

[Fierce]

Originally Posted by valkyra

a. You don't just make such an important decision to those who have higher leverage in the staff.
B. You don't go back on a global policy that we all decided.
C. Storm guild is retarded, full of griefing hackers, everyone knows it, and you unban them and give them staff positions.

co-co-co-combo!!!!

[zetlaux]

Originally Posted by Valkyra

Frankly, I don't agree with any of this. At all.

Ok, so why was there no post of any kind made about this in the staff forum for the entire staff to decide upon? It's pretty much just what the higher-ups decided, as I only see them posting in this thread how this is a great idea.

Maybe people don't know this, but a ZERO-TOLERANCE policy is just that. ZERO tolerance. It doesn't mean you can just ban people then go back and say "Oh wait, let's unban these griefing hackers, OH WAIT! Let's give them a staff position to find our exploits! The community will never know."

These are not the kind of people to be given staff privileges to. Sosko, one of the leaders of STORM, crashed the SWGEmu ventrilo several times, harassed members via Ventrilo exploits, then he comes on the IRC and ban evades MANY times, spewing his slander, lies, and rage.

But wait, you guys see fit to not only UNBAN them (which goes against the policy we enstated as a TEAM in the first place), but give them staff positions, since OUR QA TEAM WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH IN FINDING EXPLOITS.

So let me get this straight again.

"I'm Ashur, a retard that loves to flame on the forums, cause a TON of grief in game too and I love hacking! I was banned because of this, but I kissed enough ass to not only get unbanned, but get a staff position too!"

That's EXACTLY how it seems.


There's so much wrong with this.

A. You don't just make such an important decision to those who have higher leverage in the staff.
B. You don't go back on a global policy that we all decided.
C. STORM guild is retarded, full of griefing hackers, EVERYONE KNOWS IT, and you unban them and give them staff positions.


...

This has to be the biggest troll of all time.

Thinking about it like that, given the history of these individuals cited, I have to agree that Valkyra has some legitimate points here. These people do not need to be staff, they need to be on the staff's leash, licking their boots while they sniff out exploits. Only upon finding an exploit do we then give them 1 (and not more than 1) tootsie roll- then we kick them in the kidney and make them keep sniffing. Their forum titles should be "Slave Exploit Sniffers."

[roodypooh]

Originally Posted by zetlaux

Thinking about it like that, given the history of these individuals cited, I have to agree that Valkyra has some legitimate points here. These people do not need to be staff, they need to be on the staff's leash, licking their boots while they sniff out exploits. Only upon finding an exploit do we then give them 1 (and not more than 1) tootsie roll- then we kick them in the kidney and make them keep sniffing. Their forum titles should be "Slave Exploit Sniffers."

Sadly its pretty clear that they don't give a damn about what anyone says. they pretty much made that clear when they just started unbanning and promoting without any discussion with the rest of the staff.


So much for all that talk from them awhile back that they don't play favorites and treat every member of the community the same.

To all the staff who have come out against these decisions openly in te community or even in private to your fellow staff members you guys have my full support on this.

To the staff who pulled this crap i say i guess the community was right with the playing favorites and letting them <storm> do what they want with no worries about anything happening to them.

i guess treating your fellow community members like **** will eventually lead to staff positions in the future for anyone interested in applying.

[Oru]

Originally Posted by Valkyra

Frankly, I don't agree with any of this. At all.

Ok, so why was there no post of any kind made about this in the staff forum for the entire staff to decide upon? It's pretty much just what the higher-ups decided, as I only see them posting in this thread how this is a great idea.

Maybe people don't know this, but a ZERO-TOLERANCE policy is just that. ZERO tolerance. It doesn't mean you can just ban people then go back and say "Oh wait, let's unban these griefing hackers, OH WAIT! Let's give them a staff position to find our exploits! The community will never know."

These are not the kind of people to be given staff privileges to. Sosko, one of the leaders of STORM, crashed the SWGEmu ventrilo several times, harassed members via Ventrilo exploits, then he comes on the IRC and ban evades MANY times, spewing his slander, lies, and rage.

But wait, you guys see fit to not only UNBAN them (which goes against the policy we enstated as a TEAM in the first place), but give them staff positions, since OUR QA TEAM WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH IN FINDING EXPLOITS.

So let me get this straight again.

"I'm Ashur, a retard that loves to flame on the forums, cause a TON of grief in game too and I love hacking! I was banned because of this, but I kissed enough ass to not only get unbanned, but get a staff position too!"

That's EXACTLY how it seems.


There's so much wrong with this.

A. You don't just make such an important decision to those who have higher leverage in the staff.
B. You don't go back on a global policy that we all decided.
C. STORM guild is retarded, full of griefing hackers, EVERYONE KNOWS IT, and you unban them and give them staff positions.


...

This has to be the biggest troll of all time.

I can't speak on behalf of the whole team but when this idea came to my table, i said go with zero-tolerance without any hesitation. Then some of the developers raised their voices, how are we going to find these exploits if we restrict and punish these hackers. On the other hand we must eliminate the system being used for their advantage and provide a good testing environment for all the other players.

So we have adjusted the policy. Was it a rushed decision? Probably. Is there a chance we adjust it even further. Of course! I'am trying to be as open-minded as possible and you should rather come to me directly instead of going to public with complaints like this. The problems raised by many of you here is noted and being considered. It has a valid point, that we should use someone else for the job then the given individuals.

[Aeden]

Originally Posted by Oru

I can't speak on behalf of the whole team but when this idea came to my table, i said go with zero-tolerance without any hesitation. Then some of the developers raised their voices, how are we going to find these exploits if we restrict and punish these hackers. On the other hand we must eliminate the system being used for their advantage and provide a good testing environment for all the other players.

So we have adjusted the policy. Was it a rushed decision? Probably. Is there a chance we adjust it even further. Of course! I'am trying to be as open-minded as possible and you should rather come to me directly instead of going to public with complaints like this. The problems raised by many of you here is noted and being considered. It has a valid point, that we should use someone else for the job then the given individuals.

Amen

[Tigerfang]

Originally Posted by Aeden

Amen

agreed

[sXeKJB]

Originally Posted by Oru

I can't speak on behalf of the whole team but when this idea came to my table, i said go with zero-tolerance without any hesitation. Then some of the developers raised their voices, how are we going to find these exploits if we restrict and punish these hackers. On the other hand we must eliminate the system being used for their advantage and provide a good testing environment for all the other players.

So we have adjusted the policy. Was it a rushed decision? Probably. Is there a chance we adjust it even further. Of course! I'am trying to be as open-minded as possible and you should rather come to me directly instead of going to public with complaints like this. The problems raised by many of you here is noted and being considered. It has a valid point, that we should use someone else for the job then the given individuals.

Why shouldn't people of the community, whether apart of the development or not, not be able to speak their opinion on a public forum?

I'm for having a hack/exploitation/vulnerability test team of some sort, but like others have said, they did not use their abilities ethically in the first place, therefore I agree with others that if they want to do exploit testing with these players who have not been trustworthy, it should be on a separate private server to keep it private. I think it would have been more wise to create a team from scratch who can prove they are qualified and trustworthy to test and report exploits; also, and asking for people to hack/exploit to get the ability to be apart of this team may not be a wise decision, does this include sending DoS attacks?