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Old 10-14-2009, 07:41 AM
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Rubber Banding / Speed Hacking - A Special (Unplanned) DevChat - 10/14/09 2am EST

An unplanned DevChat was held late Tuesday night (wed morning) to try and clarify and address some of the issues with regard to speed hacking and rubber banding, and its effect on the community. All users on the TC, IRC and Forums were invited to ask questions. The session ended up lasting almost 3 hours, and over 200 users spectated, with 24 users asking questions.

This has been posted for any who missed it, to try and clear up some of the rumors about speed hacking and SWGEmu's controversial response.
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Old 10-14-2009, 07:42 AM
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Intro
Quote:
[5:06pm]Max:one at a time, i will give someone +v
[5:06pm]Max:in alphabetical order
[5:06pm]Max:you may ask your question and a follow up
[5:06pm]Max:please don't repeat questions
[5:07pm]Max:the log will be posted in devchat if you miss out
[5:07pm]Max:okay
[5:07pm]Max:the ONLY topic is rubber banding, any other questioners will be k/bd
[5:07pm]Max:speed hacking is under rubber banding



Ailan
Quote:
[5:08pm]ailan:Hey Max, thanks for this,
[5:08pm]Max:sure
[5:08pm]ailan:I was wondering is the rubber banding caused by hacking or by something the dev team has implemented
[5:09pm]Max:it is NOT caused by hacking
[5:09pm]Max:it is our method of trying to stop hacking from running rampant on the server
[5:09pm]Max:when you rubber band, it is because the server thinks you could be speed hacking, or moving to ofast
[5:09pm]Max:it is an intended feature, however when it catches all of you, it isn't
[5:10pm]ailan:it has gotten to be so bad that it is almost unplayable, is there any way that wit can be stopped without ruining playability for the rest of us?
[5:10pm]Max:it is imprecise, yes. we do know that
[5:10pm]Max:we have worked on making it better, and explored other options
[5:10pm]Max:however there is only so much we can do in a day without losing focus on other development goals
[5:11pm]Max:sadly, there is nothing we can do quickly, like in the space of a restart, to make it better
[5:11pm]ailan:today with 800 people I don't think anyone could make it 5 feet without it, I was under the impression that speedhacking was caused by the number of packets sent to the server
[5:11pm]ailan:can packets sent be limited instead?
[5:11pm]ailan:sorry for the numerous questions thats all.
[5:11pm]Max:speed hacking is caused by the user making the client think you are going faster than you actually are, and then reporting that data to the server
[5:12pm]Max:the server itself is never actually hacked
[5:12pm]Max:it is merely a client "illusion" so to speak
[5:12pm]Max:so no, limiting packets, as we already do, would not help the problem
Anarchy
[
Quote:
5:12pm]anarchy:some have said speed hacking is causing the rubberbanding.. if this is true isn't there a way that they can make the emu by invitation only and if u catch someone hacking uninvite them or something like that just sad that ppl try and mess up a beautiful thing the rest of us shouldn't have to suffer for u guys trying to stop a couple ppl from hacking there has to be a better way
[5:13pm]Max:as said above, speed hacking is STOPPED by rubber banding
[5:13pm]Max:and we won't make the emu invitation only, that kind of thing is against open source values
[5:13pm]Max:anything else?
[5:13pm]anarchy:nah just wanna beable to play without taking 40 min to go 500 meters lol

Anima
Quote:
[5:15pm]Max:go for it
[5:15pm]Q-AnimaRytak:I'm curious, before this new proection was implemented, how common was speed hacking on the test server and/or the old live servers?
[5:15pm]Max:I don't know exact figures about the live server, i'm guessing it was fairly common
[5:16pm]Max:for SWGEmu, however, there were, no exaggeration, dozens of players using speed hacks
[5:16pm]Max:I won't talk about specific players, of course, however there were enough that it was causing us concern
[5:16pm]Max:anything else?
[5:16pm]Q-AnimaRytak:Aside from the obvious cheating advantage, does speed hacking itself cause any server instabilities (Like Counter-Strike speedhacks)?
[5:17pm]Max:not that I myself know of
Artemis
Quote:
[5:18pm]Q-Artemis:Hello
[5:18pm]Q-Artemis:I was just wondering if you can detect the players using the speed hack and what the penalty is. Also can you block the speed hack programs
[5:19pm]Q-Artemis:Like a firewall
[5:19pm]Max:speed hack programs are client side, so no its not possible to block them
[5:19pm]Max:since they affect only the player's computer
[5:19pm]Max:and then that client then "tricks" the server so to speak
[5:19pm]Max:so no it's not possible to firewall
[5:19pm]Q-Artemis:So that makes it hard to detect?
[5:19pm]Max:thats why the only way of detecting is to have a method like rubber banding
[5:20pm]Max:where we find players who are moving too fast and send them back
[5:20pm]Q-Artemis:Oh ok thanks Max that answered my questions.
[5:20pm]Max:If we detect speed hackers, or catch them, they are met with immediate temporary bans. Repeat offenders are perma-banned

Blind sniper
Quote:
[5:21pm]Q-BlindSniper:ok
[5:21pm]Q-BlindSniper:now i know you cant remove rubberbanding
[5:21pm]Q-BlindSniper:but is there a way that it wont send us normal players back?
[5:22pm]Max:we're working to make it more precise, however that takes time and resources which we simply don't have at the moment
[5:22pm]Q-BlindSniper:ok
[5:22pm]Q-BlindSniper:i understand
[5:22pm]Q-BlindSniper:ty for your hard work
[5:22pm]Max:cheers

Bostwain
Quote:
[5:22pm]Q-Bostwain:Considering **** was one of the known speedhackers, why was he "banned" temporarily but in fact jsut had his character name changed or given a whole new jedi? If I get warned for something can I have my name changed? I just dont understand why someone can be caught speed hacking while ghosted by a staff member and recieve no punishment...
[5:23pm]Max:i can't discuss individual players or associations
[5:23pm]Q-Bostwain:Okay
[5:23pm]Max:it would be unethical
[5:23pm]Q-Bostwain:Hold on one second.
[5:23pm]Max:would you like to rephrase the question?
[5:23pm]Q-Bostwain:yes
[5:23pm]Max:please be swift
[5:23pm]Q-Bostwain:Considering ***** was one of the known speedhackers, why was he "banned" temporarily but in fact jsut had his character name changed or given a whole new jedi? If I get warned for something can I have my name changed? I just dont understand why someone can be caught speed hacking while ghosted by a staff member and recieve no punishment...
[5:23pm]Max:i can't discuss individual players or associations
Bowen
Quote:
[5:25pm]Q-bowen:If speedhacks aren't causing any problems to the server, and rubberbanding is to the player base..why is this the better of two evils? how will this effect burst run and vehicles / mounts when their added? Lastly, is it possible to remove this and prefect the program on a dumb server before pushed "live"?
[5:25pm]Max:good questions
[5:26pm]Q-bowen:lol
[5:26pm]Max:yes it is possible to run it on a dummy server, however we feel it more important to protect the player base from speed hack griefing too
[5:26pm]Max:its not a "development or nothing" approach
[5:26pm]Max:speed hacking causes serious practical problems
[5:27pm]Max:think of the implications of a prospective jedi speed hacking?
[5:27pm]Max:or a pvp player?
[5:27pm]Q-bowen:to interupt you there, in order to protect us from speed hacking grief cause I don't pvp
[5:27pm]Q-bowen:your hurting every to include hte pve playerbase
[5:27pm]Q-bowen:no offense but by listening to the minority griefs you've effected everyone for the worse
[5:27pm]Q-bowen:that's what Sony would have done
[5:27pm]Q-bowen:and i don't mean any disrespect by saying that
[5:28pm]Max:thats fine
[5:28pm]Q-bowen:i'm done, thank you for your time
[5:28pm]Q-bowen:and your efforts in this : )
[5:28pm]Max:i'll answer you
[5:29pm]Max:its not easy to try and weigh up what is best for the whole player base, i'll admit
[5:29pm]Max:i personally believe that stopping exploiters and hackers is really important
[5:29pm]Max:and i respect difference of opinion in that case
[5:30pm]Q-bowen:but is stopping everyone at everything equaly or more important?
[5:30pm]Max:obviously we don't intend for as many users as there are being affected
[5:30pm]Max:and we plan to improve the system
[5:30pm]Max:we considered having possible hackers disconnected instead of r-banded
[5:30pm]Max:would you find that more annoying?
[5:31pm]Max:so you would d/c more instead of rubber banding more?
[5:31pm]Q-bowen:I agree that something should always be done to correct problems to but quote "the girl next door" is the Juice worth the sqeeze?
[5:31pm]Q-bowen:I mean at least we were able to activly test, run missions and persue a point in the game
[5:31pm]Max:if it means better juice for breakfast next monday, yes
[5:31pm]Q-bowen:the juice would be stale, because the good parts would have left in the mean time
[5:32pm]Q-bowen:: /
[5:32pm]Q-bowen:lol
[5:32pm]Max:valid points
[5:32pm]Q-bowen:okay, i'll let you move on : )
[5:32pm]Max:I hope I don't come across as the font of all knowledge, but no one is
[5:32pm]Q-bowen:thanks aigan
[5:32pm]Q-bowen:I understand
[5:33pm]Max:thanks for showing some alternatives
[5:33pm]Q-bowen:np

cyrix
Quote:
[5:33pm]Q-Cyrix:With regards to detection of speed hackers, I'm wondering with the swg launcher that we have to open first before loading SWG (updates, etc) is there a way to see to make it scan/search to see if something has been tampered or added?
[5:34pm]Max:it is possible, yes, and its on the table for the future
[5:34pm]Q-Cyrix:ok cool, thats all i have
[5:34pm]Max:but right this second we don't have any tools in place to do that
[5:34pm]Max:but when the LPE is eventually upgraded, sure
[5:34pm]Q-Cyrix:thanks you guys rock
[5:34pm]Max:cheers

eenu
Quote:
[5:35pm]Q-Eenu:how will this affect vehicles/mounts when they're implemented...do you plan to have an improved system by then?
[5:35pm]Max:yes
[5:35pm]Max:vehicles are able to be speed hacked too though
[5:35pm]Q-Eenu:ok thanks
[5:36pm]Max:sure
Ernest
Quote:
[5:36pm]Q-Ernest:If speed hacking is so detrimental to the server stability, balance, and brings along all the problems it does why is the punishment only a temporary ban? It seems to be just a slap on the wrist when it is such a big problem that the COMMUNITY as a whole thinks should be given a more serious punishment. That leads me into another question, will we, as the player base, have any say in how things are run?
[5:36pm]Q-Ernest:Kinda broad.
[5:36pm]Q-Ernest:Sorry
[5:36pm]Max:this questions raises a much bigger debate
[5:37pm]Max:1) how harsh is harsh?
[5:37pm]Max:and 2) how much say should a player have in over all server management?
[5:37pm]Max:for #1, I can only say that many people quote a period of SWGEmu's history as being nazi-like and draconian
[5:37pm]Max:we don't want to go back to bans for every thing
[5:38pm]Max:we have to have levels of removal to allow people to reconsider their own actions
[5:38pm]Q-Ernest:Forum rules
[5:38pm]Q-Ernest:Seem a bit different than server rules.
[5:38pm]Max:people need to be given the benefit of the doubt
[5:39pm]Max:as for if the players will be given a say, not in the running of our TC, no
[5:39pm]Q-Ernest:I see
[5:39pm]Max:it's run to best benefit and facilitate testing in an enjoyable way
[5:39pm]Q-Ernest:I understand that.
[5:39pm]Q-Ernest:That's pretty much it I guess.
[5:40pm]Max:SC is outside the scope of this discussion
[5:40pm]Max:okay
[5:40pm]Max:thanks
[5:40pm]Q-Ernest:Since others have questions.
five9
Quote:
[5:40pm]Q-five9:hi
[5:40pm]Q-five9:you stated that "as said above, speed hacking is STOPPED by rubber banding" and...
[5:40pm]Q-five9:"where we find players who are moving too fast and send them back"
[5:40pm]Q-five9:and "think of the implications of a prospective jedi speed hacking?"
[5:41pm]Q-five9:this rubberbanding is affecting us all
[5:41pm]Q-five9:and stopping us all
[5:41pm]Max:I know
[5:41pm]Q-five9:without names and associations,
[5:41pm]Q-five9:it would appear that a goal can be reached faster even with a few day ban
[5:41pm]Q-five9:then doing so legit thus it becomes a reward timewise
[5:42pm]Q-five9:weill we be seeing a slightly heavier ban on cheaters
[5:42pm]Q-five9:or is the cheater path to be continued to be rewarded
[5:42pm]Q-five9:while others who unlocked legit cannot play due to other bugs
[5:42pm]Q-five9:thanks
[5:42pm]Max:its obvious how many problems this is causing
[5:42pm] Chris_halo_boss334 left the chat room. (Quit: Chris_halo_boss334)
[5:43pm]Max:in that consideration, hackers and such are being taken much more seriously
[5:43pm]Max:we are still persuing at least one "warning ban" so to speak, however that could be weeks long
[5:43pm]Q-five9:the community is on the verge of munity over what is a reward based on time spent legit, to time spent cheating +temp ban
[5:43pm]Max:we aren't going to jump straight to perma from a first time offender
[5:44pm]Q-five9:nope and thats understood
[5:44pm]Q-five9:but temp ban plus cheating still cuts the time in half
[5:44pm]Q-five9:thats the motive for them, kill the motive u kill half the problem
[5:44pm]Q-five9:thats all
[5:44pm]Max:with the anti-hack on, it prevents that from being a problem
[5:44pm]Q-five9:prevents us all
[5:44pm]Max:as in, a recurrent problem
[5:44pm]Max:thats the weigh up
[5:44pm]Q-five9:other games can stop client side hooks
[5:45pm]Max:other games aren't using a pre-made client
[5:45pm]Q-five9:the ban has to stop the motive and in this case its just not there
[5:46pm]Max:fair argument, except that no one will be banned for speed hacking when they can't speed hack

Forked
Quote:
[5:46pm]Q-Forked:Thanks, Max. My question is a bit on the technical side, and I don't know if you can answer this. In the packet structure between client and server, is there no date/time field for sequencing the communication as well as accommodating lag in the communication? Communication lag seems to increase the rubber banding, which is why I ask.
[5:47pm]Max:as far as i know there isn't a timestamp on packets, no
[5:48pm]Q-Forked:ok, then that's all my questions
[5:48pm]Max:however i won't pretend to be any kind of knowledgeable entity on the subject
[5:48pm]Max:sure thing
[5:48pm]Max:post it on the open dev forum if you're still interested
[5:48pm]Q-Forked:that I am
[5:48pm]Max:i can have it followed up
[5:48pm]Max:thanks

Grill
Quote:
[5:48pm]q-Grill:Looking forward is there any meet in the middle ideas to help players such as setting the anti hack program on intervals to run every other hour or something or possibly giving us a shorter cooldown on burst run (even tho Burst run would prob cause more rubberbanding, im unsure)? (just random ideams)anything that may help temporarily get through this to keep things productive depending on how long we will have to wait for a fix? Also what is
[5:49pm]Max:missed half your message there
[5:49pm]Max:post the rest after "Also"
[5:49pm]q-Grill:also what is the priority on this
[5:49pm]Max:the priority on this is medium-high
[5:49pm]Max:its not top priority, but its certainly on the mind
[5:50pm]Max:running the anti-hack on a interval probably won't work, unfortunately
[5:50pm]Max:since that won't stop people who are hacking for the other 59 minutes of the hour
[5:51pm]q-Grill:hmm maybe keeping it random and at least having it slow them down wthout having people complain
[5:51pm]Max:I see the idea, however I personally think that improving a full-time system is the best option
[5:52pm]Max:open to conjecture, of course
[5:52pm]q-Grill:agreed, hopefully it wont take too terribly long
[5:52pm]Max:i hope so too
[5:52pm]Max:cheers

hammy
Quote:
[5:52pm]Q-Hammy:Speedhacking and the rubberbanding issue caused by the anti-speed hacking measure are serious matter affecting participating players on TC: Nova. As previously stated, this cannot be fixed overnight and creating a solution takes time and people. Because of the server-wide magnitude, How does this impact the team's development projects such as the eventual release of the OR? Thank you and that is all.
[5:53pm]Max:well stated, thank you
[5:53pm]Max:at this stage it is not a hindrance to the other development milestones
[5:54pm]Max:however, if we were to dedicate more resources, it would most definitely
[5:54pm]Max:if we seem reluctant to change the current system that is why, out of any of the reasons
[5:54pm]Max:TheAnswer is the top dog when it comes to the anti-hack, and he is also one of the driving forces of the OR
[5:55pm]Max:in the scheme of things, the OR unfortunately does take precedence
[5:55pm]Max:at this stage though, it is not affecting the OR's development
[5:55pm]Max:thanks

Hoz
Quote:
[5:55pm]Q-Hoz:Was the anti-speed hacking tool that is causing this rubber banding on server side or is it client side? Is there anyway in making a checksum type program like other mmos with a temp kick instead of the rubberband? And what else have you/others looked into besides this tool
[5:56pm]Max:this tool is server side
[5:56pm]Max:it is impossible at this stage to enforce a client-side prevention due to the fact that we didn't make the client
[5:56pm]Max:and we can't enforce the patching of such a tool
[5:56pm]Max:however, we have looked into kicks as opposed to rubber bands
[5:57pm]Max:however it would be just as sensitive as the rubber bands, and would cause a lot of "collateral kicks"
[5:57pm]Max:if that makes sense
[5:57pm]Q-Hoz:Why can't you enforcec a patch?
[5:57pm]Max:not everyone uses the LPE
[5:57pm]Max:and at this stage, that would be the only reliable distribution method
[5:58pm]Max:it would be limiting on players if we were to force everyone to use the LPE - it simply doesn't work for some people
[5:58pm]Max:lastly, client mods are not always effective or stable
[5:58pm]Q-Hoz:Ok thank you
[5:58pm]Max:we don't know what long term effects patching in such a system could have on client stability
[5:58pm]Max:cheers
[5:59pm] Bost joined the chat room.
[5:59pm]Max:we have also looked into logging as well as a way of stopping hackers, however we determined it would take too much time and people to sort though logs of that size
iGasmask
Quote:
[5:59pm]Q-iGasmask:What is the Emu doing to prevent hacking? This is an amature project so it's most likely going to be rather easy to exploit. I would assume the speed hacking was probably done by an amature with CE or something. So are you guys prepared for more experienced hackers? Any plans for a team for the sole purpose of hack prevention? I feel the bigger problem is being overlooked here. A few people can ruin the game for all of us.
[5:59pm]Q-iGasmask:Also I'd like to touch on teh subject of temp bans
[5:59pm]Max:sure
[6:00pm]Q-iGasmask:I hacked for many years andi can tell you temp bans are a joke. Especially to someone who got jedi because of the hacks.
[6:01pm]Q-iGasmask:You should delete their character as well as a temp ban, if not just perma ban. If you tell me "We're going to temp ban before we perma ban" I think "Okay I'll speed hack put a huge dent in my goal if not complete it and hack til I'm caught"
[6:02pm]Max:we don't have the tools just yet to easily delete characters
[6:02pm]Max:also there's the issue of false accusations
[6:02pm]Max:we're not always right
[6:02pm]Q-iGasmask:Do you have the tools to monitor a player yet?
[6:02pm]Max:to a degree
[6:03pm]Q-iGasmask:Haha I'm getting a ton of PMs here
[6:03pm]Max:with the OR will come more in depth and workable logging methods
[6:03pm]Max:firstly, the ability to "hack" in the context we're talking is really limited to what you can trick the client into thinking. you can't actually change the true weapon stats of a weapon for example, only make the client think they are different
[6:03pm]Max:core3 as a server will be, and already is, extremely resilient to hacking from outside the client
[6:04pm]Q-iGasmask:Well I think the issue on all of our minds here is Jedi
[6:05pm]Q-iGasmask:I mean I could log on in off peak hours and get my all my POIs then get a temp ban
[6:05pm]Q-iGasmask:Saved me hours and now I can just play another game for the days I'm banned
[6:05pm]Max:fair enough
[6:06pm]Q-iGasmask:All I'm saying is hacking should be very high priority in development and even after the emu is finished
[6:06pm]Max:in the future, when we have more tools and better anti-hacking programs, we'll definitely revise our process
[6:06pm]Max:thanks
[6:06pm]Q-iGasmask:Okay, that's all I have to say. Thanks for your time and I hope this issue is taken seriously.

Ladywolf
Quote:
[6:07pm]Q-Ladywolf:I for one am not thinking atm of jedi. I am thinking of getting to my mission before it dissapears.A wookie player blew by me on naboo seemly unaffected. So Would it help issues if all run speed was increased as an interum messure. I hope I don't sound stupid. Great work in anycase!!
[6:08pm]Max:i really don't understand it well enough to say how some are badly affected and others aren't
[6:08pm]Max:i will talk to TA tonight about trying to do a quick "de-sensitize" on the anti hack
[6:09pm]Q-Ladywolf:well I num lock run a great deal. is that affecting me
[6:09pm]Max:since it does seem to be pretty bad
[6:09pm]Max:no
[6:09pm]Q-Ladywolf:TY

miller
Quote:
[6:09pm]Q-miller:As you stated Max, you "yourself" did not know of any server instabilities caused by the speed hackers and also said they would be dealt with swiftly if caught with a warning and then a permaban. With that being said why not just take out the anti-hack and give the banhammer where it needs to be swung?. I would say this should be a top priority because now it IS causing server instabilities player side and making it i
[6:10pm]Q-miller:sorry if anything was asked but I have a newborn and missed some
[6:10pm]Max:sure
[6:11pm]Max:simply because we can't catch everyone
[6:11pm]Max:we don't have the tools in place to monitor people closely enough, nor do we currently have the resources to do so
[6:11pm]Q-miller:ok, with that being said perhaps allow a little more travel before anti hack kicks in
[6:11pm]Q-miller:cause I know lagg is a factor with the software correct?
[6:11pm] anarchy left the chat room.
[6:12pm]Max:yeah as i said i'm going to talk to TA tonight about making it less sensitive
[6:12pm]Max:depends what kind of lag
[6:12pm]Max:FPS lag, where the client stutters or freezes, is 100% your computer side
[6:13pm]Max:chat lag, where you say something and it doesn't show up for a few seconds, is server side
[6:13pm]Max:important distinction to make
[6:13pm]Q-miller:haha I have NO PROB there I can run this game with my microwave
[6:13pm]Q-miller:thats all though thanks
[6:13pm]Max:np

nee2earth
Quote:
[6:13pm]Q-nee2earth:Hi Max, thanks...ok so:
[6:13pm]Q-nee2earth:First: imo, PROVEN speed-hacking cheaters should be 2018perma-banned2019 and their characters 2018deleted2019 . Period. 2013 Now onto questions: 1) Is it possible to get access to one of the original SWG pre-cu Devs to ask advice/info on how best to deal with 2018speed-hacking2019 ? It just seems like you guys over-whelmed abit, on the technical side I mean (btw: I2019m not blaming u at all, I fully understand you2019re
[6:15pm]Max:1) we haven't had any contact with pre-cu devs, however if the chance comes up, we'd have to look at it in that context
[6:15pm]Max:i'm sure there would be mixed feelings
[6:15pm]Max:i don't know to be honest
[6:15pm]Q-nee2earth:(i'll reply after your done with 2) )
[6:16pm]Max:2) i'm not a technical wizard, I'm a communicator, so if it seems like I'm overwhelmed, adept observation
[6:16pm]Q-nee2earth:./grin, np
[6:16pm]Max:however we have some people who i can profess are geniuses, and I would not say that we are in any way overwhelmed in that regard
[6:17pm]Q-nee2earth:let me know when ur done so i can reply respectfully
[6:17pm]Q-nee2earth:ah ok, np good to know
[6:17pm]Max:people like Oru our head developer, TheAnswer, Ramsey, Kyle cRush
[6:17pm]Max:they're all industry grade developers
[6:17pm]Max:please proceed
[6:17pm]Q-nee2earth:ok cool, good to know that info
[6:17pm]Q-nee2earth:ok regarding my 1)
[6:17pm]Max:two of our devs actually work as industry professionals, i won't go into specifics though for obvious reasons
[6:18pm]Q-nee2earth:Hypothetically, if someone were able to reach-out to the pre-cu ORIGINAL devs, to help you guys, how wud someone facilitate that meeting to You if someone cud set it up?
[6:19pm]Max:the best thing to do if you had such an offer would to be in touch with our project manager, Ramsey. You can always contact me and I will forward things on too.
[6:19pm]Q-nee2earth:Ok, how wud one get in touch with You or Ramsey? through email?
[6:19pm]Max:sure. max@swgemu.com and ramsey@swgemu.com respectively, as well as forum PMs
[6:20pm]Max:IRC pm's are kinda unreliable
[6:20pm]Q-nee2earth:and lastly, regarding my 2) What else can we the player-testers do to help fix this rubber-banding issue, if anything?
[6:20pm]Max:be very patient
[6:20pm]Max:and cut us some slack
[6:20pm]Q-nee2earth:np i do that already lol...anyways, next person...thanks for ur time everyone../bow
[6:21pm]Max:I don't want to lay blame, however when people on the forums expect that we can / will do something just because they ask for it, it does make us all quite down
[6:21pm]Q-nee2earth:understood..thx for ur time../bow
[6:21pm]Max:cheers

panda
Quote:
[6:22pm]Q-panda:Is it safe to say that nearly every person who has unlocked in such a short period of time used speedhacks in order to do so
[6:22pm]Max:no
[6:22pm]Max:its not
[[6:22pm]Q-panda:Alright
[6:22pm]Q-panda:and
[6:22pm]Q-panda:for the ones who did use hacks to do it
[6:22pm]Q-panda:shouldnt they be forced to start over
[6:23pm]Max:well
[6:23pm]Max:at this stage, it is too late to turn around and re-punish such a user
[6:24pm]Max:however, I do recognise your point
[6:24pm]Q-panda:All Im saying is, bans are one thing and thats fine for some cheating in pvp or lootwhoring.
[6:24pm]Max:and trust me that it will be a major point of discussion for the GMs
[6:24pm]Q-panda:but when you got your toon through a way that is totally against rules and forcing the entire community to suffer
[6:24pm]Q-panda:why should you be allowed to keep that toon
[6:25pm]Max:i can't answer that question
[6:25pm]Max:unfortunately
[6:25pm]Q-panda:Just thought it should be brought up.
[6:25pm]Q-panda:thats all I got
[6:25pm]Max:it is, trust me
[6:26pm]Max:its a never ending discussion
[6:26pm]Q-panda:Well
[6:26pm]Q-panda:can I ask another?
[6:26pm]Max:sure
[6:27pm]Q-panda:the anti hack system measures distance to determine if a person is speedhacking
[6:27pm]Q-panda:and moves them back if it determines they have gone too far in a given period of time?
[6:27pm]Q-panda:Would it be possibly to do that on a larger scale that wouldnt effect the average user traveling on foot and getting rubberbanded every 10m
[6:28pm]Max:Unfortunately I don't know enough about it to answer that 100%
[6:28pm]Q-panda:alrighty.
[6:28pm]Max:sorry

ravenlock
Quote:
[6:30pm]Q-Ravenlock:I appreciate the work and effort going into making this acceptable on your end. Thanks for being our messenger
[6:30pm]Q-Ravenlock:First, is there anything we as a playerbase can do to make this easier on your end?
[6:30pm]Q-Ravenlock:Second, I've been holding back from helping on the development end until after the OR, but is this something that having more eyes or manpower could help out with in the Open-(Source/Dev) area?
[6:31pm]Q-Ravenlock:On a related note, is this intended to be an engine change or specific to SWG, and as such will it be configurable by the server communities?
[6:31pm]Max:it is a core3 specific function
[6:33pm]Max:sorry i don't want to touch on non-rubber band q's
[6:33pm]Max:nothing personal
[6:33pm]Max:we can talk later
[6:33pm]Max:anything else?
[6:33pm]Q-Ravenlock:That's fine, understandable.
[6:33pm]Q-Ravenlock:Nope
[6:33pm]Max:cheers

reverb
Quote:
[6:34pm]Q-Reverb:Since some people as you state can't use the LPE why not implement a client side patch and release it also in a .EXE format installer that will patch the SWGEMU client folder. So that all users who can't use the launcher can still get the necessary patch. I would say that 90% of the community would rather deal with more testing with a client side checksum patch that would deal with the anti cheat then having to deal with this serve
[6:34pm]Q-Reverb:And touching on that part I know a guy willing to do all this for you guys.
[6:37pm]Q-Reverb:Then 2nd. Since this is such a obvious strong statement on all users. Why not make the server be ZERO tolerance for hackers. If caught beyond a reasonable doubt that they will be banned. No questions no appeals. This is the only way I have ever seen a private server run properly that has been of any success.
[6:39pm]Max:its hard
[6:39pm]Max:its a real debate, and one i don't have a simple answer for
[6:39pm]Q-Reverb:No problem
[6:40pm]Max:we don't want to alienate anyone from the program
[6:40pm]Q-Reverb:Sometimes its better to do so as a whole for the community to run smoother.
[6:40pm]Q-Reverb:Punish the few to better the experience for the masses
[6:40pm]Q-Reverb:If the people are truly interested in the project they will eventually stop hacking.
[6:41pm]Q-Reverb:after 2-3 bans a hacker will become a little less likely to try
[6:41pm]Max:thats the thing though
[6:42pm]Max:the people who are hacking aren't interested in the project
[6:42pm]Max:they want to have fun and stuff around
[6:42pm]Q-Reverb:more reason to be rid of them.
[6:42pm]Q-Reverb:hence the zero tolerance
[6:43pm]Max:mmm
[6:43pm]Q-Reverb:im blunt sorry
[6:43pm]Max:no problem
[6:43pm]Max:its a really really hard question / topic
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  #3  
Old 10-14-2009, 08:03 AM
pgsparky pgsparky is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 217
Bostwain
Quote:
[5:22pm]Q-Bostwain:Considering **** was one of the known speedhackers, why was he "banned" temporarily but in fact jsut had his character name changed or given a whole new jedi? If I get warned for something can I have my name changed? I just dont understand why someone can be caught speed hacking while ghosted by a staff member and recieve no punishment...
[5:23pm]Max:i can't discuss individual players or associations
[5:23pm]Q-Bostwainkay
[5:23pm]Max:it would be unethical
[5:23pm]Q-Bostwain:Hold on one second.
[5:23pm]Max:would you like to rephrase the question?
[5:23pm]Q-Bostwain:yes
[5:23pm]Maxlease be swift
[5:23pm]Q-Bostwain:Considering ***** was one of the known speedhackers, why was he "banned" temporarily but in fact jsut had his character name changed or given a whole new jedi? If I get warned for something can I have my name changed? I just dont understand why someone can be caught speed hacking while ghosted by a staff member and recieve no punishment...
[5:23pm]Max:i can't discuss individual players or associations

Epic Fail.
  #4  
Old 10-14-2009, 08:17 AM
jermat jermat is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: california
Posts: 159
wow this is just amazing, the other day i had a a guy hackusate me saying i used a item generator for my loot. person are smart people are stupid
  #5  
Old 10-14-2009, 08:35 AM
Keono Keono is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 125
Quote:
[6:34pm]Q-Reverb:Since some people as you state can't use the LPE why not implement a client side patch and release it also in a .EXE format installer that will patch the SWGEMU client folder. So that all users who can't use the launcher can still get the necessary patch. I would say that 90% of the community would rather deal with more testing with a client side checksum patch that would deal with the anti cheat then having to deal with this serve
[6:34pm]Q-Reverb:And touching on that part I know a guy willing to do all this for you guys.
[6:37pm]Q-Reverb:Then 2nd. Since this is such a obvious strong statement on all users. Why not make the server be ZERO tolerance for hackers. If caught beyond a reasonable doubt that they will be banned. No questions no appeals. This is the only way I have ever seen a private server run properly that has been of any success.
[6:39pm]Max:its hard
[6:39pm]Max:its a real debate, and one i don't have a simple answer for
[6:39pm]Q-Reverb:No problem
[6:40pm]Max:we don't want to alienate anyone from the program
[6:40pm]Q-Reverb:Sometimes its better to do so as a whole for the community to run smoother.
[6:40pm]Q-Reverb:Punish the few to better the experience for the masses
[6:40pm]Q-Reverb:If the people are truly interested in the project they will eventually stop hacking.
[6:41pm]Q-Reverb:after 2-3 bans a hacker will become a little less likely to try
[6:41pm]Max:thats the thing though
[6:42pm]Max:the people who are hacking aren't interested in the project
[6:42pm]Max:they want to have fun and stuff around
[6:42pm]Q-Reverb:more reason to be rid of them.
[6:42pm]Q-Reverb:hence the zero tolerance
[6:43pm]Max:mmm
[6:43pm]Q-Reverb:im blunt sorry
[6:43pm]Max:no problem
[6:43pm]Max:its a really really hard question / topic
^^ this. While i would be against perma bans with no warning on a live server. This is a test server anyone who is hacking a test server needs to be banned then when SC hits then can play there since they don't want to test. I think you guys need to make hacking perma, add an appeal section to the forums, and post it on LPE so everyone knows it's a insta perma ban.
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  #6  
Old 10-14-2009, 08:43 AM
lothos lothos is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 9
I have been doing comparisons with friends that play in different regions with different net speeds and wondered if the resources of a persons PC affected how bad they rubber banded.

For example, I run on Vista 64 with a dual core 3.2 and 4g of ram and an nvidia 8800gts 512mb. On 16mbps cable out of Detroit. ( server is physically in chicago right? ) I have basically every option on max full screen and I average 80-85% bounce back for movement forward.


My friends typically are on machines about 20% behind mine on cable half as fast and they get next to no rubber banding.

I play my crafter on my laptop as well and sufffer maybe half the rubber banding. Winxp 2gb ram, 512mb radeon x1250.

Just thought I would throw that out there if folks wanted to speculate % to machine power.
  #7  
Old 10-14-2009, 09:06 AM
Reverb Reverb is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 91
The later half was answered on vent. Most of the hard questions hit max on the vent server AFTER he officially closed the dev chat on IRC
  #8  
Old 10-14-2009, 09:21 AM
fixit6 fixit6 is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,236
Quote:
Originally Posted by lothos View Post
I have been doing comparisons with friends that play in different regions with different net speeds and wondered if the resources of a persons PC affected how bad they rubber banded.

For example, I run on Vista 64 with a dual core 3.2 and 4g of ram and an nvidia 8800gts 512mb. On 16mbps cable out of Detroit. ( server is physically in chicago right? ) I have basically every option on max full screen and I average 80-85% bounce back for movement forward.


My friends typically are on machines about 20% behind mine on cable half as fast and they get next to no rubber banding.

I play my crafter on my laptop as well and sufffer maybe half the rubber banding. Winxp 2gb ram, 512mb radeon x1250.

Just thought I would throw that out there if folks wanted to speculate % to machine power.
I use highest teir cable on a fairly decent rig...get rubberband pretty bad at times. So essentially, the better your internet connection/computer...the worse it is...? Ugh. Lame.
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  #9  
Old 10-14-2009, 09:29 AM
lothos lothos is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixit6 View Post
I use highest teir cable on a fairly decent rig...get rubberband pretty bad at times. So essentially, the better your internet connection/computer...the worse it is...? Ugh. Lame.
that would seem the case if the check is such that the server only gets updated with speed/position every few ticks and your machine is processing it smoothly without hiccups. Not sure what is possible to adjust though, updating client to server responses for position, client side constant position calibration, or additional position data from server to client. I would think any lessening of the tool to accommodate faster machines would simply make the speed hack more possible on lesser machines.
  #10  
Old 10-14-2009, 09:30 AM
GenerixBanshee GenerixBanshee is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: London, England
Posts: 176
Ok - if for example those cheating could be identified - rather than banning them permanently (as it seems you don't want to do)...wouldn't it be possible to just ban that particular user login account - but allow them to reregister with the same email (i.e. they lose their toons they cheated with - thus removing any benefit of cheating)

Alternatively I have seen some forums now issue a 5 activation charge - another alternative would be for those caught cheating a ban would be in place until they reactivated their account at a cost of 5 (a time). this would help pay the bills too.

Just my thoughts.
  #11  
Old 10-14-2009, 10:23 AM
Darkwing Darkwing is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 41
Quote:
[5:46pm]Q-Forked:Thanks, Max. My question is a bit on the technical side, and I don't know if you can answer this. In the packet structure between client and server, is there no date/time field for sequencing the communication as well as accommodating lag in the communication? Communication lag seems to increase the rubber banding, which is why I ask.
[5:47pm]Max:as far as i know there isn't a timestamp on packets, no
[5:48pm]Q-Forked:ok, then that's all my questions
[5:48pm]Max:however i won't pretend to be any kind of knowledgeable entity on the subject
[5:48pm]Max:sure thing
[5:48pm]Maxost it on the open dev forum if you're still interested
[5:48pm]Q-Forked:that I am
[5:48pm]Max:i can have it followed up
[5:48pm]Max:thanks
I seem to recall that SOE ran chat on a seperate server (I remember it being down a few times, you could still play, just not chat).
Maybe running chat seperate could help a bit with the problem?
It might also lower lag in general.
Ofcourse it would require a seperate server for it, so it may not be possible at the moment.
  #12  
Old 10-14-2009, 11:12 AM
Emokho Emokho is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Hampton VA
Posts: 418
I don't believe it has too much to do with the computer running the game on, I'm useing a Dell I bought in 2001 and rubber banding like crazy. I have no idea what the stats on the computer are anymore, I did buy it as a gameing computer back then and it was the best one in the barracks at 1st Radio Batallion at the time but I can't play alot of games on it that have come out in the past 2 or 3 years. I've upgraded the RAM from 250meg to 1 gig recently and put in a slightly newer video card but it's not seeming to effect any other games like KOTOR 1 and 2.

I am wondering though if terrain negotiation has any effect on the distance check as my character seemd to rubberband more as I progressed up the exploration tree in scout, esecialy in mountionous areas. Now it's to the point where I have to run up to 63 meters of a target, wait 10 seconds, run back to 63 meters from 112, wait a few seconds, and do that again before engageing the target. But I digress, if the server is checking the characters movement in a given amount of time is it also takeing into consideration the terrain negotiation of the character or assumeing that the character is hacked when it's actualy functioning properly?
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  #13  
Old 10-14-2009, 11:27 AM
XBitX XBitX is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwing View Post
I seem to recall that SOE ran chat on a seperate server (I remember it being down a few times, you could still play, just not chat).
Maybe running chat seperate could help a bit with the problem?
It might also lower lag in general.
Ofcourse it would require a seperate server for it, so it may not be possible at the moment.
That is a great idea actually.

The only problem as Max has stated, is that there is just a lack of resources to do so.

From what I got, TheAnswer is working on the Anti-Speed Hack. But he's also the OR Head.

Plus, actual servers are very expensive unless they had their own... I think they're buying their servers from a server farm right now...

These are the problems of a project that's not being backed by corperate money.

I'm sure they'll get a happy medium soon. I have faith in our developers.
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  #14  
Old 10-14-2009, 12:30 PM
kastle7 kastle7 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Fairfax, Virginia
Posts: 24
While I agree in spirit with those calling for a perma-ban if hackers are caught, I think some are missing the point. It seems just about everyone is rubberbanding which means the anti-hack program "thinks" we are speed hacking. So, if it looks like we are hacking, they would perma-ban anyone that is rubberbanding (last night it was so bad my toon looked like he was break dancing). Not a workable solution. Same problem with disconnecting people, do you really want to get kicked every time you would have rubberbanded. I don't, I spend enough time trying to connect as it is. I think the only thing right now is possibly adjusting the sensitivity a bit as Max said he would speak to TA about.
  #15  
Old 10-14-2009, 01:15 PM
guru42101 guru42101 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 26
I think the the calculations used to decide if someone is going to fast needs to be rethought. Do the packets contain a timestamp? If so, you could calculate the maximum expected movement distance, given their stats / mounts within the time between the current and previous (or x-th back in the history if you want to skip some) packet. Of course that may be what you're already doing and your estimated travel distance per time unit is too low.

Also, I personally recommend commenting out the section that causes rubber banding and change it to first logging the suspicious activity (including the amount of discrepancy) and second alerting (via chat) the user that the server has detected them going faster than they should. That should let you fine tune your calculations without ruining the playability of the game. It also should allow you to see the cheaters and ban them, just because they can't speed hack doesn't mean they won't just do something else.

As is currently I cannot grab 2 missions from the terminal and always complete them both. It simply takes to long to run. And I've nearly died several times from mobs bigger than I that I cannot run away from.

Last edited by guru42101; 10-14-2009 at 01:18 PM.
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