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  #481  
Old 10-20-2009, 01:59 AM
Worlack Worlack is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Tatooine
Posts: 26
Weighing in

I know this thread has been railed and derailed, loaded with irrelevant bull and people carrying on personal conversations. However, Learningdisease stated that the staff is taking the community's input very seriously and instead of flames and finger pointing I just wanted the opportunity to voice my opinion.

I've been lurking, reading, and taking in as much of the situation as I can since the speed-hacking came to light. I was there for Max's QandA in IRC and first became worried about some form of corruption when I learned of Ashur and STORM in that discussion. I was getting slightly worried when out comes the big "Zero-Tolerance" policy. After reading through it and the subsequent posts, my faith was restored in the staff and thought that would be the end of it. We were all clambering for some form of punishment for the perpetrators of the speed-hacking, griefing, etc and I felt we got it with the "Zero-Tolerance" policy.

Then suddenly, a few days later, the staff does a 180 and comes out with this. I was baffled to see the perpetrators not only unbanned, but rewarded with positions in a newly formed "exploitation team".

Quote:
Originally Posted by learningdisease View Post
What does the community feel is the appropriate course of action?
This is where we have not had as much input from the community. Enough flaming, +1ing, and counterpointing. What would you have done were you in STAFF's position?
I am of the opinion that the staff should never have made an exception to the "Zero-Tolerance" policy. However, I understand the need to form this new "exploitation team" to root out bugs/exploits/hacks while we are in the testing phase and I fully support it. I couldn't care less about who gets what, who unlocks Jedi, whatever, on a test center. Unfortunately there is so much controversy swarming around this Ashur and STORM that the issue is no longer what gains are made on a test center - It is the credibility and trustworthiness of the staff over the decisions made regarding it all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by learningdisease View Post
Is there a way we can appease both the community and STAFF?
I certainly think so.
Maybe the community wants Ashur perma-banned, but allow for the exploitation team.
I believe this is the only way now to appease both the community and the staff. We need an exploitation team, internal or external, to root out the exploits before launch. We also need a "Zero-Tolerance" policy and the staff cannot break or bend this policy.

I believe a statement needs to be made that recognizes and explains the need for the exploitation team while simultaneously condemning those that used speed-hacks and griefed for their own benefit and hit them with the perma-ban. I believe we have plenty of talented, trustworthy and upstanding individuals in this community that are more than willing to join this newly formed team; we don't need people with this kind of reputation.

I also really liked the way Tropicana weighed in on the issue. I think he summed up what a lot of us are thinking.


I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank the development team and staff for all their hard work. I am having a blast testing and playing on Nova right now even through the rubber banding and lag. The whole SWGEmu team has made some amazing progress and I am excited as hell for Suncrusher's release. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to express my opinion.

Last edited by Worlack; 10-20-2009 at 02:06 AM. Reason: Spelling - Grammar - Clarification
  #482  
Old 10-20-2009, 02:09 AM
Ekaika Ekaika is offline
Retired Community Deputy Director
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oahu
Posts: 5,073
I can assure you this much, this is not a situation where "buddies" get to cheat and prosper, and this is not a situation where corruption is taken lightly. I can speak for myself and a huge group of the people I work with, and I can promise you that while yes, we make mistakes, our only interest and concern is the success of this project and the rebirth of pre-cu. We're acutely aware of the communities will and desires, and we're constantly working to balance the needs of the project against that of our ever-growing population. Allow us our growing pains, and our trip-ups, but understand that this community is dedicated, and we're not going to fracture.
  #483  
Old 10-20-2009, 02:24 AM
CapnSwifty CapnSwifty is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Outer Rim of Tucson
Posts: 149
I wont presume to know any details but going off of what I see in this thread considering the communities current state of questionable favoritism.

After reading the following ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
Quote:
3.13 All forms of hacking, exploiting, and anything designed to break, bend or in anyway alter or skew SWGEmu gameplay experience in favor of one player or against another player is encouraged within strict guidelines.
3.13.1 All successful exploitations are to be reported to the "Exploitation Team", and not posted in public.
3.13.2 Exploitations will never be used to purposely gain advantage over another player or inflict a negative experience on another player. The only accepted instances of exploiting are those that are reported, and for the purpose of enhancing and securing future gameplay.
3.13.3 Failure to adhere to this policy will result in the following consequences. There will be one warning directing the guilty part to the exploitation team. After this one warning ALL subsequent transgressions will result in an immediate permanent ban with the ability to be appealed after three months and immediate deletion of all known characters, items, disbanding of guilds if guild leader, and removal of all items on the marketplace.
Then watching / reading the following ...
(omitted the video for esthetics, http://www.swgemu.com/forums/showthr...=33698&page=24)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jondo View Post
You can hear one of them order the "disease bug" to be used early in the video (:36). Then at the end, they request the "disease bug" again on Mel. "Uh Oh, we have a problem. We're gonna need that disease bug now", guy says (3:30). "Its coming...its coming... if it loads" other guy says. You can see them apply the disease to Mel, then the video fades to black. Scene opens with Mel corpsed.
I believe the following statements need to be reconsidered / clarified.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GestorterEngel View Post
The bug was reported by the person who found it, and he is the only one who knows how to make this said bug, and he isn't making it for anyone or passing it out.
If this were completely true then other people talking about it so blatantly would be unlikely. However, it is safe to assume that at the very least the bug was discussed with other players. How much detail ...

There's a big difference in using a bugged disease, than using a third party program for speed hacking and purposely abusing it.
Umm, not at the end of the day. There maybe a big difference between them in method but usage of either to advance in any way other than gathering information for a report is exploiting.
I understand in a later post it was said that the bug really wasn't used in this video. In either case the way it was mentioned in the video means that it was very likely considered being used as a tool to accomplish a task as a group before heading out on that task.


The person who was calling out the bug in Vent that day had no right to try and get anyone to use this, and was straight up called out and *****ed at for doing so.
This statement along with the video really makes it sound as though some of the specifics regarding this bug had been shared with others.
My assumptions could be wrong given all possible scenarios but with the information at hand all logic points otherwise.
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  #484  
Old 10-20-2009, 02:31 AM
Bostwain Bostwain is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Neutral
Posts: 869
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnSwifty View Post
The person who was calling out the bug in Vent that day had no right to try and get anyone to use this, and was straight up called out and *****ed at for doing so.

This statement along with the video really makes it sound as though some of the specifics regarding this bug had been shared with others.
Bug reports are not private. You can look at a list of every bug report made. This bug is common knowledge.
  #485  
Old 10-20-2009, 02:39 AM
Zecke Zecke is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Germany
Posts: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tropicana View Post
First of all, I really am appalled by the childness, rule-breaking, rule-changing, brown-nosing, favoritism, and a great deal of other immature activity that has been going on recently.

I have not read all twenty-two pages of this thread, and honestly, even if I had, I probably wouldn't have gotten any information that would have benefited me for relevance of my post.

I remember the good ole' days when this project actually had morals, and dedication. Alas, those days are gone. From word of mouth alone, I can tell you what the issues are with this project, and from skimming over the OP of this thread, I can tell you that these issues are either not being addressed, or simply being ignored.

The policy of "No toleration of hacking, period" is not something that the Devs, as leaders, are allowed to bend, break, or manipulate. If you do not have the ability, or man-power to deal with the policies that you have implemented, then you need to think twice before you make them.

If someone is caught using third party programs, or actually "hacking" the game in an attempt to abuse the server that everyone else is playing on, it is an automatic perma-ban, no exceptions, whatsoever. That is the policy, and no one, not even Kyle has the right to change it.

There are only a few possible reasons why the Devs would change their policies on hacking: 1) they realize that they can't stop people from doing it. 2) they don't want to be bothered with having to correct the issue. 3) the persons implicated in hacking have befriended the Devs, and therefore a personal issue occurs.

Any of those possibilities are not acceptable, not for Mods, and definitely not for Devs. You don't start a "new and improved" system in place to seek out, and identify hackers, by taking known hackers, and exploiters under your wing, and giving them more power, and authority than they already had.

You are not the Government, and you are not a Las Vegas casino, you don't need to inlist the help of criminals to help solve your problems. You ban the problem makers, and you wash your hands of the situation.

If you insist on not following through with your own policies, and bending the rules for whatever reason, then this project is going to sink like a rock. Trust will go out the window in half a day, and people will become, and remain skeptics towards anything that happens from now on.

It is uncomparably more important to fix server issues, and make head-way on this project then it will ever be to deal with hackers, find them, ban them, rinse, and repeat. I am not even going to get into the idiocracy of unbanning hackers, for ANY reason, I am pretty sure everyone on this server will concur on the currect course of action in that situation. I am also certain that if you are unbanning hackers, or exploiters, you will be second guessed for as long as you remain the leaders of this project.

I cannot stress enough, how important it is to remain focused on the project. If you cannot do that, then all is lost, and you might as well let amateurs run this project. Some people would argue that is already the case, and while their opinions might not matter to the Devs, it should factor in to how you decide to run your project.

Drama will run a muck on any project of this magnitude, amongst members, but when the Devs are in the middle of it, that is when major set-backs occur. While I would never try to tell Devs how to do their job, I am obligated to try and help them with ideas on how to resolve issues swifty, and permanently.

I wish you all well, and I hope to see the outcome of these issues resolved so that this project can get on track.

/sticky plz
__________________
IGN:
Amaie Culmo - wannebe Jedi
Taecea Zee - MBH


Suddenly last summer.
I started going out if my head.
In a tiny hotel room.
Lying naked on the bed.
I knew what you were doing. And i knew what you'd done.
Your life with me was ending. Your new life had begun.
But i was cursing your name. And i was cursing that room.
And i was praying for the strengh, to stop loveing you.
  #486  
Old 10-20-2009, 02:43 AM
Bostwain Bostwain is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Neutral
Posts: 869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tropicana View Post
First of all, I really am appalled by the childness, rule-breaking, rule-changing, brown-nosing, favoritism, and a great deal of other immature activity that has been going on recently.

I have not read all twenty-two pages of this thread, and honestly, even if I had, I probably wouldn't have gotten any information that would have benefited me for relevance of my post.

I remember the good ole' days when this project actually had morals, and dedication. Alas, those days are gone. From word of mouth alone, I can tell you what the issues are with this project, and from skimming over the OP of this thread, I can tell you that these issues are either not being addressed, or simply being ignored.

The policy of "No toleration of hacking, period" is not something that the Devs, as leaders, are allowed to bend, break, or manipulate. If you do not have the ability, or man-power to deal with the policies that you have implemented, then you need to think twice before you make them.

If someone is caught using third party programs, or actually "hacking" the game in an attempt to abuse the server that everyone else is playing on, it is an automatic perma-ban, no exceptions, whatsoever. That is the policy, and no one, not even Kyle has the right to change it.

There are only a few possible reasons why the Devs would change their policies on hacking: 1) they realize that they can't stop people from doing it. 2) they don't want to be bothered with having to correct the issue. 3) the persons implicated in hacking have befriended the Devs, and therefore a personal issue occurs.

Any of those possibilities are not acceptable, not for Mods, and definitely not for Devs. You don't start a "new and improved" system in place to seek out, and identify hackers, by taking known hackers, and exploiters under your wing, and giving them more power, and authority than they already had.

You are not the Government, and you are not a Las Vegas casino, you don't need to inlist the help of criminals to help solve your problems. You ban the problem makers, and you wash your hands of the situation.

If you insist on not following through with your own policies, and bending the rules for whatever reason, then this project is going to sink like a rock. Trust will go out the window in half a day, and people will become, and remain skeptics towards anything that happens from now on.

It is uncomparably more important to fix server issues, and make head-way on this project then it will ever be to deal with hackers, find them, ban them, rinse, and repeat. I am not even going to get into the idiocracy of unbanning hackers, for ANY reason, I am pretty sure everyone on this server will concur on the currect course of action in that situation. I am also certain that if you are unbanning hackers, or exploiters, you will be second guessed for as long as you remain the leaders of this project.

I cannot stress enough, how important it is to remain focused on the project. If you cannot do that, then all is lost, and you might as well let amateurs run this project. Some people would argue that is already the case, and while their opinions might not matter to the Devs, it should factor in to how you decide to run your project.

Drama will run a muck on any project of this magnitude, amongst members, but when the Devs are in the middle of it, that is when major set-backs occur. While I would never try to tell Devs how to do their job, I am obligated to try and help them with ideas on how to resolve issues swifty, and permanently.

I wish you all well, and I hope to see the outcome of these issues resolved so that this project can get on track.
QFR (quoted for readability)

EDIT: Now after reading this post I agree. This change and wavering in the staff team has had me semi make up my mind to play on GR instead where I don't know the devs so I know there will be no favoratism that I know of :P

Last edited by Bostwain; 10-20-2009 at 02:50 AM.
  #487  
Old 10-20-2009, 02:56 AM
fixit6 fixit6 is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,236
A few of the players in question here have been around a long long time, a couple have in fact helped track down a considerable amount of bugs over the years. Now if they are willing to report exploits, script haxs, etc that they has uncovered (or created) to the proper people, then what can I say? Eradicating such problems should be taken quite seriously for a smooth transition -> live. If not now, then when? I don't think any of us would like to go into 1.0 with huge exploits and other cheats present. Certainly, however, this exploit team SHOULD not be given GM/Dev/Mod type powers; that is a given.

Anyrate, I am not supporting or condoning either side. Most this is all hersay, rumors, and posts filled with emotion created from several players and guilds...

I think the devs are level headed enough to deal with this properly. If said players use these cheats to grief and or get a leg up over players without reporting them + repeat it continuiously, punishment should be handed out...for sure.
__________________
  #488  
Old 10-20-2009, 03:00 AM
five9 five9 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
If people leave, that is their loss. Recruiting people that can hack our systems is logical and necessary. And yes, this is an open invitation to anyone who wants to try and exploit / hack / crack / dupe / etc. If you can do any of these things, we have a place for you on the Exploitation Team. If you don't report it to the team, we will ban you forever, and delete your characters. Simple, easy, and for the good of the final product. This is a TC, and we need to find the exploits, can any of you complaining make a list of exploits? If the answer is yes, come join the team, if the answer is no, then realize that it's just a TC, and we want the final product to be as exploit proof as possible, and for that we need to hire the best exploiters. Ponder the logic before complaining further.
I think an anti-exploit team is a great idea, for the future

but I think you have lost the logic behind letting known cheaters back into the game well after the fact that they exploited with intent to defraud the system

It would be one thing if they where reporting it at the time, but thats not case hence multiple bans and a change in policy in the 1st place..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oru View Post
I think there has been some miss-communication. We are definitely listening to the community and that is why we were very serious about the zero-tolerancy towards the exploiters. After we made the decision, we have realized that this will hinder the project while we are in development. That being said we lighten the policy up so we give a second chance for them so they can help fill in these holes. However this does not mean they can cheat, grief or exploit anymore! These things will go privately and not on the public test center. In case they are caught again, we say goodbye to them for good.

I hope this will help understand why we have come to this decision. Besides our will to step up against hackers, this will benefit everyone in the long run.
thats great for future hackers who report exploits, but going back and letting ones who defrauded the system at the time with no intent of reporting back into the game it is unwarranted

there is only one kind of cheater, yet there are many kinds of testers who report things

please stop putting the two in the same boat otherwise all it does is appear that the good ole boy system is well in affect and some are above the rules


I have one word for all of this,

integrity


yet all i am seeing is a bunch of Smedley'isms
  #489  
Old 10-20-2009, 03:26 AM
CapnSwifty CapnSwifty is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Outer Rim of Tucson
Posts: 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bostwain View Post
Bug reports are not private. You can look at a list of every bug report made. This bug is common knowledge.


Not so long ago this option had a checkbox or drop down menu that we could select when submitting a bug report.

I clearly remember seeing at least a dozen bug reports regarding the resource dupe appear and disappear before the last couple of wipes.

Not to mention # 2 below ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anakis View Post
As we are still in the Development phase, I don't see a zero-tolerance policy on exploiting being very helpful. From a Development perspective, we NEED players to find these exploits and hacks and inform us about them, so that we can code the server to prevent their use in the future live servers, like Thoop said.

We cannot have players being afraid to find and report such things out of fear of being banned/deleted. We all know that once this is live, there will be plenty of those types hacking away and disrupting play on a live server if they can. We need to find and fix these issues before we get there.

We are definitely not giving the green light here for the exploiters to run wild. What we are saying is that you won't be banned, no questions asked, if you perform an exploit on the TC.

How I interpret this policy change is like this. It is okay to perform an exploit on TC as long as:

1. Your actions are not griefing other players.

2. You immediately (and privately) report all details of how you performed the exploit to the appropriate staff and do not tell anyone else about it.

3. You DO NOT continue to perform the exploit on the TC, even after reporting it.


You find it, you report it, you keep quiet about it to your friends and you don't use it again.

Unfortunately, we have had staff members misbehave in the past. If you think that Staff are not watched for these sort of things, you are mistaken.
__________________
  #490  
Old 10-20-2009, 03:26 AM
teneo347 teneo347 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3
Damn guys. The whole point of them making emu playable now is to find bugs and DEVELOP the server code. We're on a test center for god sakes. They're attention is probably focused more on fixing bugs than establishing a community. There are a dozen groups waiting in the wings who want to do that. The dev team's priority should be getting a working release.

I'm new here so I probably don't have a firm grasp of the full history of Ashur. But who cares, if you beta test something, you have to expect glitches/exploits. When you see someone exploiting...report the exploit, the player is inconsequential. It's the internet, there are always going to be *******s.

If just can't stand the idea of someone exploiting, don't play a beta - wait for the full release.

Last edited by teneo347; 10-20-2009 at 01:57 PM.
  #491  
Old 10-20-2009, 03:33 AM
Ferren Ferren is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ekaika View Post
I can assure you this much, this is not a situation where "buddies" get to cheat and prosper, and this is not a situation where corruption is taken lightly. I can speak for myself and a huge group of the people I work with, and I can promise you that while yes, we make mistakes, our only interest and concern is the success of this project and the rebirth of pre-cu. We're acutely aware of the communities will and desires, and we're constantly working to balance the needs of the project against that of our ever-growing population. Allow us our growing pains, and our trip-ups, but understand that this community is dedicated, and we're not going to fracture.
emphasis.
__________________
  #492  
Old 10-20-2009, 05:29 AM
odohvare odohvare is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 96
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by teneo347 View Post
Damn guys, 12 pages. The whole point of them making emu playable now is to find bugs and DEVELOP the server code. We're on a test center for god sakes. They're attention is probably focused more on fixing bugs than establishing a community. There are a dozen groups waiting in the wings who want to do that. The dev team's priority should be getting a working release.

I'm new here so I probably don't have a firm grasp of the full history of Ashur. But who cares, if you beta test something, you have to expect glitches/exploits. When you see someone exploiting...report the exploit, the player is inconsequential. It's the internet, there are always going to be *******s.

If just can't stand the idea of someone exploiting, don't play a beta - wait for the full release.
AMEN!!!

It's a test center. Let the Exploits Fly!! Find them, fix them. And not having the ability to repeat them, kinda makes it hard to see if they are repeatable. Finding and correcting Exploits and Bugs should be the TOP Priority. Now, however, we run the risk of getting reported and then banned because we found something. Sometimes, repeating an exploit is required to figure out just exactly what happened. Personally, I don't think there should be any BANNING for exploits until the game goes GOLD. The ones I think should be banned are the people that cry all day about how much it sucks that we don't have speeders, and how long it will take them to walk to such and such place. Basically the whiners. The game is in a somewhat playable state, but that doesn't mean that is what should be happening. The primary focus is still testing, and there are so many people that get upset about little roll backs, inventory items disappearing, a busted bazaar, or not being able to be trained or train anyone. Then after they get good and ticked off, they start mouthin off to other people, or publicly cursing the devs. I think people need to be reminded that this is a test environment, not a full scale playable game. Get that back in people heads and the maybe they will realize that trying to perform and finding exploits is part of the testing process, and both the bugs and exploits need to be duplicated, in many zones, planets, etc. They may exist/work in one place and not another(ex: The broken Cantina in Theed).
  #493  
Old 10-20-2009, 05:40 AM
Alegis Alegis is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 73
First, im glad to hear youre allready working on the rubberbanding/lag issues.

It was a lil bit annoying the last days because i thought you doesnt look at this for the moment (because of other projects like OR etc)


Second, i dont like the idea to see speed-hackers (or script-users, whatever) in the emu staff, but i understand what your point is.
And i like you, for trying to get the hackers/hacks out of the emu.
  #494  
Old 10-20-2009, 06:11 AM
Davydm Davydm is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by bondhi View Post
honestly, i appluade the EMU's team choice.... its not another nge ooooooo scary he said the n word.... its not praising an exploit..... its simply called a bug, id get used to it, your on TC. rubberbanding? big deal, i'm not dead or bleeding from the mouth. in fact i simply continue to play and look for bugs, /report if its already reported then i dont bother.... i keep playing.... which many do...

so what if the devs say, ashur is alright, he backed up his story, and had proof well let him back in... i garuntee if he does it again he'll get banned right up the butt... so what he found jedi, and he has force run.... all of a sudden its called an exploit? sure he'll skip around like the easter bunny.... and he greifs? hmmm last i checked the /ignor works.... i dont waste my time ingame yelling at other players... just like i dont waste my time yelling at my dinner table....

here's the way i see it.... since were on a TC, just play the game.... /report bugs.... /ignore players you dont like..... and surround yourself with good people =D.... why worry about someone having something you dont? jealousy? yeah seems like it... out raged like an angry mob outside the white house (being the EMU's team) just because something didn't go your way? yeah....

heh, dont waste your time.... nothing will go your way every time in a MMO... true its a sandbox, you have a opinion, but just like everyone else they have opionions and a say in things too.... people can defend themselves if they get in trouble... i supprot that, i support the maximum penalties if caught ruining gameplay for other players.....

thanks EMU team for implimenting these rules of conduct =D
bondhi you hit the nail on the head mate people need to stop worrying about there e-peens and just play with people they like and ffs ignore the idiots

I unlocked my jedi on Chilly I played for 3 years and loved it until they destroyed the game. This is our chance to rekindle the enjoyment we had before $OE and LA ruined it for us all. We should enjoy it while we can cause you never know how long you got...


Davyd Redstrum - Dark Jedi Knight (Chilastra Exile)
  #495  
Old 10-20-2009, 06:54 AM
is2u is2u is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29
I think this is completely fair, to say the least, if it helps the Dev team accomplish it's goals in the long run.

In the short run, it's only beta, who cares if Ashor is back and he exploits again. Once he is caught he will never be given the same 2nd chance again and another exploit will have been discovered and will be on the way to being fixed. The thing to keep in mind is everything you are working on on the current server will someday be undone. It's not like you are working towards progress on the real server.

The other thing to keep in mind is this staff has the wisdom to communicate what exploits have been found in the community and how they are handling it. It allows everyone to know what has been going on and that they are working to fix it and make this a better game for all. It is a reward to the community that these exploiters get found out and the exploits are fixed before v1.0 goes live.
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