TC Bulletin and Policy Change 10/18/09

[Kyle]

Hi Everyone,

We'd like to note a policy revision in our Test Center Rules and Policies.

3.13 All forms of hacking, exploiting, and anything designed to break, bend or in anyway alter or skew SWGEmu gameplay experience in favor of one player or against another player is encouraged within strict guidelines.
3.13.1 All successful exploitations are to be reported to the "Exploitation Team", and not posted in public.
3.13.2 Exploitations will never be used to purposely gain advantage over another player or inflict a negative experience on another player. The only accepted instances of exploiting are those that are reported, and for the purpose of enhancing and securing future gameplay.
3.13.3 Failure to adhere to this policy will result in the following consequences. There will be one warning directing the guilty part to the exploitation team. After this one warning ALL subsequent transgressions will result in an immediate permanent ban with the ability to be appealed after three months and immediate deletion of all known characters, items, disbanding of guilds if guild leader, and removal of all items on the marketplace.

While we still are taking a hardline on exploiting, the staff realizes that during development, there is a need to expose problems before we can enact the Zero-Tolerance policy as needed on a finished server.

With this announcement, we are officially organizing the Exploitation Team as a part of our Quality Assurance team. They will have the sole purpose of uncovering exploits and being a point of contact for community members that do find exploits. More information will be released on this team in the coming weeks.

To clear up a sore subject now that we have all the facts, I would like to address the recent banning of a known exploiting guild. Contrary to public belief and statements made by staff members, no one was able to exploit their way to jedi. The community member in question, Ashur, has in fact been extremely helpful in helping uncover serious Test Center flaws and is part of our Exploitation Team, but due to some communication breakdowns has received an unfair reputation. He did in fact get caught speed hacking, but was immediately cooperative. The subsequent reports are untrue. He was accused of speed hacking publicly, when in fact it was a legitimate use of FR3 which, like many of the jedi skills, are getting there first real tests and many are very bugged and broken. A number of the other members of the guild will continue to stay banned permanently because of their unwillingness to cooperate and immaturity in the matter, but a handful of the mature, and talented members have chosen to leave the Dark Side, and use their powers for good. Please welcome these people and treat them accordingly.

To reiterate the previous post, behavior from the community, and sadly, even staff,will no longer be tolerated when it is designed to undermine the project or community.

Regards,

[TAfirehawk]

Very nice adjustments, I hope the Community sees this as continued improvement as we move towards v1.00

[Tipical]

So was this like an amendment to the zero tolerance policy that it's actually okay?

[GestorterEngel]

With all due respect, this post simply seems like it's saying "Hey, if you hack, come apologize to us, work with us, and we'll unban you."

I simply don't understand it... If someone is caught exploiting (and I think I'm not the only one who'll agree with this) they shouldn't be brought back. Is he back, or is he just working with the team?

What's to say Ashur won't be doing this again? Will he be watched to make sure? Is this how everyone else will be treated that cooperates with you for exploiting?

[Bostwain]

I just reread the ashur part. I am utterly speechless. So the first person to find an exploit in a way is rewarded then?

EDIT: Also who is to say now that ashor is on your exploitation team that he will not do so unnoticed because now hes a figure of authority? I just don't understand this move at all. Seriously.

EDIT2: Moral of the story is if you're going to hack, make sure you're friends with the devs first so you don't have any serious consequences?

[StoneInc]

with all due respect, this post simply seems like it's saying "hey, if you hack, come apologize to us, work with us, and we'll unban you."

i simply don't understand it... If someone is caught exploiting (and i think i'm not the only one who'll agree with this) they shouldn't be brought back. Is he back, or is he just working with the team?

What's to say ashur won't be doing this again? Will he be watched to make sure? Is this how everyone else will be treated that cooperates with you for exploiting?

+111111
i guess we'll be seeing ashor in 2 months and 3 weeks then won't we?

+1111111

[DefectedBac]

Ever watch a movie with a "bad guy" doing something for the cops? What do you see him doing when the cops aren't watching? The same old stuff.

[Bostwain]

Ever watch a movie with a "bad guy" doing something for the cops? What do you see him doing when the cops aren't watching? The same old stuff.

This is more like catch me if you can...

He got caught, now hes one of them again.. but just like in catch me if you can, he'll relapse..

[Thoop]

With all due respect, this post simply seems like it's saying "Hey, if you hack, come apologize to us, work with us, and we'll unban you."

I simply don't understand it... If someone is caught exploiting (and I think I'm not the only one who'll agree with this) they shouldn't be brought back.

It is more of a, "Hey, if you hack, you are going to work with us so that we can prevent other people from hacking if they use the same method. Otherwise we're going to ban you and delete all your stuff."

Since we are still in development stages and there are still going to be wipes, the main goal is to write code that will prevent these hacks. So if we can do it now, before we get to v1.0, then that is beneficial to all of us after v1.0.

The main point being, we are still in development and we want to write code to prevent people from using these hacks. We are trying to improve our code to make it so these hacks will be of no use.

[Bostwain]

It is more of a, "Hey, if you hack, you are going to work with us so that we can prevent other people from hacking if they use the same method. Otherwise we're going to ban you and delete all your stuff."

Since we are still in development stages and there are still going to be wipes, the main goal is to write code that will prevent these hacks. So if we can do it now, before we get to v1.0, then that is beneficial to all of us after v1.0.

The main point being, we are still in development and we want to write code to prevent people from using these hacks. We are trying to improve our code to make it so these hacks will be of no use.

So now is ashor recieving his jedi and progress back or does he have to restart?

[GestorterEngel]

My problem isn't with him helping you guys by far, but moreso if he's allowed to come back the concern of him doing this again and it being overlooked, or him secretly helping his friends out to achieve certain things and being overlooked. I just don't think it's acceptable to allow these people back into game and possibly do what they got in trouble for to begin with.

[Thoop]

So now is ashor recieving his jedi and progress back or does he have to restart?

I don't deal with any of that so I have no clue. I'm just talking about the development side of the project.

My problem isn't with him helping you guys by far, but moreso if he's allowed to come back the concern of him doing this again and it being overlooked, or him secretly helping his friends out to achieve certain things and being overlooked. I just don't think it's acceptable to allow these people back into game and possibly do what they got in trouble for to begin with.

Like I said, we are going to prevent the hacks he used from working through code. That way he (or anyone else) will not be able to use them.

[roodypooh]

LMAO so basically for hacking AND GRIEFING people in the community who were trying to get thier jedi get rewarded with a kiss and given a position on the staff.

So much for the change you guys were implimenting....faith unrestored

[hozsnoop]

I guess this isn't a rule then
http://www.swgemu.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33216

[Bostwain]

I don't deal with any of that so I have no clue. I'm just talking about the development side of the project.

Can you please find out and let us know because there are MANY objections for him being able to just all of a sudden be back to where he was. :|

[GestorterEngel]

It does seem like this could be a huge problem if he is let back into the community. I've already had +5 people on vent and more in game talking about quitting if this happens. It seems like it could put a huge damper on the community if this is allowed for Ashor, and other people.

[Bostwain]

LMAO so basically for hacking AND GRIEFING people in the community who were trying to get thier jedi get rewarded with a kiss and given a position on the staff again.

So much for the change you guys were implimenting....faith unrestored

fixed.

This move is almost as good as SOE announcing the NGE.

So does this mean if I was to pioneer a hack/exploit, get what I want... then tell you about it and help you prevent anyone else from doing it, i would be rewarded with a staff position too?

[Tolbat]

I know some of you have personal opinions of various people involved, however you may not know the full story. I ask that you have patience and trust in our staff members, and developers.

That said, I am sure that if anyone who is unbanned is caught exploiting or hacking for personal gain then they will receive the maximum punishment.

No one is above the rules here.

Thanks.

Tolbat

[roodypooh]

It does seem like this could be a huge problem if he is let back into the community. I've already had +5 people on vent and more in game talking about quitting if this happens. It seems like it could put a huge damper on the community if this is allowed for Ashor, and other people.

sadly this is the same talk goin on in our vent and i'm sure when the rest get on and hear about this alot more will say the same thing

[GestorterEngel]

My problem isn't personal at all. I'd have this problem with anyone who has hacked and was rewarded with a staff position and the ability to freely play the game again with no punishment. My concern is it repeating, and no one wants that to happen.

[Anakis]

As we are still in the Development phase, I don't see a zero-tolerance policy on exploiting being very helpful. From a Development perspective, we NEED players to find these exploits and hacks and inform us about them, so that we can code the server to prevent their use in the future live servers, like Thoop said.

We cannot have players being afraid to find and report such things out of fear of being banned/deleted. We all know that once this is live, there will be plenty of those types hacking away and disrupting play on a live server if they can. We need to find and fix these issues before we get there.

We are definitely not giving the green light here for the exploiters to run wild. What we are saying is that you won't be banned, no questions asked, if you perform an exploit on the TC.

How I interpret this policy change is like this. It is okay to perform an exploit on TC as long as:

1. Your actions are not griefing other players.

2. You immediately (and privately) report all details of how you performed the exploit to the appropriate staff and do not tell anyone else about it.

3. You DO NOT continue to perform the exploit on the TC, even after reporting it.

You find it, you report it, you keep quiet about it to your friends and you don't use it again.

Unfortunately, we have had staff members misbehave in the past. If you think that Staff are not watched for these sort of things, you are mistaken.

[Bostwain]

As we are still in the Development phase, I don't see a zero-tolerance policy on exploiting being very helpful. From a Development perspective, we NEED players to find these exploits and hacks and inform us about them, so that we can code the server to prevent their use in the future live servers, like Thoop said.

We cannot have players being afraid to find and report such things out of fear of being banned/deleted. We all know that once this is live, there will be plenty of those types hacking away and disrupting play on a live server if they can. We need to find and fix these issues before we get there.

We are definitely not giving the green light here for the exploiters to run wild. What we are saying is that you won't be banned, no questions asked, if you perform an exploit on the TC.

How I interpret this policy change is like this. It is okay to perform an exploit on TC as long as:

1. Your actions are not griefing other players.

2. You immediately (and privately) report all details of how you performed the exploit to the appropriate staff and do not tell anyone else about it.

3. You DO NOT continue to perform the exploit on the TC, even after reporting it.

You find it, you report it, you keep quiet about it to your friends and you don't use it again.

Unfortunately, we have had staff members misbehave in the past. If you think that Staff are not watched for these sort of things, you are mistaken.

You think ashor immediately reported the explot everytime he hit his speed hack keybind? Also he did not just do it once. both of these making it not okay for what he did by your own words.

[GestorterEngel]

As Bostwain posted above. This person was repeatedly seen hacking, (I don't know if he ever reported it), but he did continuously do it, while griefing many many other players... So yes, somewhat by your own words, what he did wasn't okay...

Note that my only problem here is that he is allowed back into the community after this, with no punishment after (by your own words) doing 1-3.

That is my only concern and that is what I'm rather confused on.

[kelharis]

Is he, or any other member of the team being given information about the inner workings of how the EMU will detect hacks? Because this seems to me like a classic case of the fox guarding the hen house.

What guarantee will there be that these members of the exploitation team won't be simply figuring out how to avoid detection once SC goes live?

[Anakis]

You think ashor immediately reported the explot everytime he hit his speed hack keybind? Also he did not just do it once. both of these making it not okay for what he did by your own words.

I am not familiar with the details of what any one person or guild has done, so I can't really comment on his particular case.

But like Kyle said, they approached said persons and gave them the option to cooperate for the good of the project or be banned. It reminds me of how some of the most infamous hackers are hired by the companies they hacked, as security consultants.

[Bostwain]

Yes but wasn't ashor QA already before?

[Thoop]

Is he, or any other member of the team being given information about the inner workings of how the EMU will detect hacks? Because this seems to me like a classic case of the fox guarding the hen house.

What guarantee will there be that these members of the exploitation team won't be simply figuring out how to avoid detection once SC goes live?

This is the nature of all open source projects where the code is available online. We must take extra measures to ensure that we produce the greatest final product that we can. There are many extremely talented developers on this team coming up with great ways to prevent and detect these exploits. Any hacks or exploits that come to our attention will have a way of being prevented or detected. The "exploitation team" will not be above these detections.

[SomeoneImportant]

Goes to show with swgemu, as always..if your friends with the team, you'll get places. Even if you're in the wrong..Good going staff, 1 step forward, 5 steps back.

The community should take it into their own hands, anyone who was a part of the speedhacking to jedi, and anyone who continues to do so, should be hunted, killed, grieved, and overall their time on swgemu should be made hell.

[hozsnoop]

My problem isn't personal at all. I'd have this problem with anyone who has hacked and was rewarded with a staff position and the ability to freely play the game again with no punishment. My concern is it repeating, and no one wants that to happen.

When it comes down to it. They have the right to do whatever they want because it's not our server, they own it. They just allow us to play on it. If they want to make a team to stop it i say great. If ashors going to help that's great too. But him and a few others sitting back and laughing at us posting on the forums, also great.. But to be fair if your going to let him back because of this you should let all of storm back with a warning. Fair is fair.

[Bostwain]

This is the nature of all open source projects where the code is available online. We must take extra measures to ensure that we produce the greatest final product that we can. There are many extremely talented developers on this team coming up with great ways to prevent and detect these exploits. Any hacks or exploits that come to our attention will have a way of being prevented or detected. The "exploitation team" will not be above these detections.

Can you please show me where to obtain the source?

Also how do I go about joining this exploitation team? I would like to stop the exploitation going on... including what is about to start up again.

[Kyle]

If people leave, that is their loss. Recruiting people that can hack our systems is logical and necessary. And yes, this is an open invitation to anyone who wants to try and exploit / hack / crack / dupe / etc. If you can do any of these things, we have a place for you on the Exploitation Team. If you don't report it to the team, we will ban you forever, and delete your characters. Simple, easy, and for the good of the final product. This is a TC, and we need to find the exploits, can any of you complaining make a list of exploits? If the answer is yes, come join the team, if the answer is no, then realize that it's just a TC, and we want the final product to be as exploit proof as possible, and for that we need to hire the best exploiters. Ponder the logic before complaining further.

[Bostwain]

If people leave, that is their loss. Recruiting people that can hack our systems is logical and necessary. And yes, this is an open invitation to anyone who wants to try and exploit / hack / crack / dupe / etc. If you can do any of these things, we have a place for you on the Exploitation Team. If you don't report it to the team, we will ban you forever, and delete your characters. Simple, easy, and for the good of the final product. This is a TC, and we need to find the exploits, can any of you complaining make a list of exploits? If the answer is yes, come join the team, if the answer is no, then realize that it's just a TC, and we want the final product to be as exploit proof as possible, and for that we need to hire the best exploiters. Ponder the logic before complaining further.

If you're serious where would you like me to contact you? Here in PMs or on IRC?

[Thoop]

Can you please show me where to obtain the source?

Also how do I go about joining this exploitation team? I would like to stop the exploitation going on... including what is about to start up again.

You can obtain any open source things you need from our assembla page here. (http://trac2.assembla.com/swgemu/) As for joining the Exploitation Team, please PM an admin with an exploit and they will tell you what the next step will be.

[Kyle]

If you're serious where would you like me to contact you? Here in PMs or on IRC?

Dead serious, exploiters unite for the good for the good of the project. You can contact me on IRC.

[hozsnoop]

Do you have a different server to test exploits on like sql injection that might damage or crash it.

[Kyle]

Do you have a different server to test exploits on like sql injection that might damage or crash it.

Of course we do.

[Leodextrin]

/emote grabs popcorn and intently watches

let whatever happens, happen.

[mijom]

Is this Exploitation Team, Official staff position inside the QA? or more like the Support "helpers", unofficial volunteer position.

[SomeoneImportant]

I guess this isn't a rule then
http://www.swgemu.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33216

So much for zero-tolerance. :|

[Wolverine79]

Complaining. Its a joke right. Seem there is a deep rooted corruption in this project. This whole project has really turned downhill. Some of the staff I think are really great. While others seem to be pure corrupt and abuse their power and letting friends do whatever they like.

Instead of covering up your corruption you just making open now. Letting hackers/exploiters to whatever they like because they are friends of staff. Ashur and storm got caught and others but now this a way to throw it back at the community that tried to stop it and hoping it would be fair but instead got just got attacked by the staff and now letting the same ones just hack/exploit and grief all they want. That staff member sit and chat with them about it knowing they were exploiting and hacking but was over looked because Ashur and crew is buddy with crush and kyle and other devs/staff.

They knew of the exploits and ran there hacks and was ok till the community started reporting it. This is how you deal with it. Just make it open now for them to cont. because they are friends of yours.

I and other have really have lost faith in this project. Trying to test and enjoy a fair and balanced for us all when letting others do what they want. When we try to report them we get threaten to mind our own business or be prema banned for it because it. I guess now no worries of that because your making so they can do as they like.

Btw you say no one exploited/hacked to jedi is bs man. You know he did and other but go ahead and try to cover it up. People aren't stupid as you think man. So if you wanna talk about corrupted staff and all take a look at yourself.

People like Ashur that are friend of you guys can say and do whatever they like knowing they can get away with it but people will open thier eyes and see its not just them but staff is also behind this. People do talk and leak out what you do also. It might just come back at you.

[hozsnoop]

What kind of setup do you have for ip spoofing / SQL injection really? So if i get kyles ip address and spoof just my packets to the server. And then i use the @commands i could use them right? Or do you have a different client setup yet? That means i could use any GM online to spawn npcs and get things off of right? And also if i do this do i have direct access to the database from the chat/command line to start sql injection and create npcs / edit drop/loot tables on a active database. I mean i could cover my trails by putting it back the way it was. I would think that would cause a dead lock or even a crash if done on a active database. I'm really wondering what kind of protection you guys have. I would love to access that test database/server.

[Yhor]

Rubber bands are the future.

http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv326/Yhor_emotes/rubberbandjpg.jpg

Coming soon to an auto dealer near you... The Rubber Band powered automobile.

Then soon to follow.. Rubber Band powered Windows servers.

The possibilities are endless!



As far as the policy goes, I can understand it. However, giving Staff positions to griefers who don't even grief fair... it is very confusing. Not as confusing as NGE, but pretty damned close.

And I could probably come up with 100 nice things to say about the nameless one, but the fact remains .... blah, like you really care.

Whatever, thanks for all the work on Emu, you rock, etc.. etc.. etc.. Hopefully the community can get past it. Congrats on restoring faith in the integrity of the community.

[Kyle]

Is this Exploitation Team, Official staff position inside the QA? or more like the Support "helpers", unofficial volunteer position.

It is more like an unofficial volunteer position.

[roodypooh]

So much for zero-tolerance. :|

no see this is the exception to the rule. When your buddy buddy with acouple of the top devs and you go cry to them for being banned for legit reasons its ok cause we aren't gonna let our boy stay banned and will let him do whatever he wants without having to worry about getting banned in the future.

The person i feel bad for is Max. He did a great job with how he handled the griefing and exploiting and now caue of aushors buddies he gets off without even a slap on the wrist a nice new promotion and a grief and exploit whoever whenever cause we don't give a damn what anyone else says card.

[Wolverine79]

no see this is the exception to the rule. When your buddy buddy with acouple of the top devs and you go cry to them for being banned for legit reasons its ok cause we aren't gonna let our boy stay banned and will let him do whatever he wants without having to worry about getting banned in the future.

The person i feel bad for is Max. He did a great job with how he handled the griefing and exploiting and now caue of aushors buddies he gets off without even a slap on the wrist a nice new promotion and a grief and exploit whoever whenever cause we don't give a damn what anyone else says card.

^This!;)

[GestorterEngel]

It's still one thing to accidentally find an exploit, and go "Oh, this is wrong, let's report it." and never use it again... Then to do what Ashur and his crew did, and abuse it, grief others, and continuously take advantage of it even after reporting... I can understand letting people who come across these help, but there has to be some kind of line to where you've gone overboard on abusing what you shouldn't...

[Kyle]

It's still one thing to accidentally find an exploit, and go "Oh, this is wrong, let's report it." and never use it again... Then to do what Ashur and his crew did, and abuse it, grief others, and continuously take advantage of it even after reporting... I can understand letting people who come across these help, but there has to be some kind of line to where you've gone overboard on abusing what you shouldn't...

Hence the unequivocal and absolute change to the policy. Clarification so we can remove people that abuse it permanently in accordance to the policies.

[mijom]

It is more like an unofficial volunteer position.

Thanks for confirming that Kyle.

I hope the select few will be worth the trust and their word.
There is alot of good the team can come up with for future and for SC. And since it's not Official staff position they don't get of the staff privileges and are closely monitored by staff.

I think you all should calm down bit and just see how it goes before making any conclusions.

[Z Ray]

who cares who has jedi or who has what leet items or a plethora of badges. its a test center, its all going to be wiped many times over.

[five9]

...including ban time, a zero tolerance policy, and then weaseling there way back into the game.... are some still able to play at all?

While many many other players are still chugging out rumors?

They may not have pressed a magic button and unlocked, but speed hacking sure sped the process up a lot faster then those of us who unlocked legit, and those who are still trying.


From a Development perspective, we NEED players to find these exploits and hacks and inform us about them, so that we can code the server to prevent their use in the future live servers, like Thoop said.

We cannot have players being afraid to find and report such things out of fear of being banned/deleted. We all know that once this is live, there will be plenty of those types hacking away and disrupting play on a live server if they can. We need to find and fix these issues before we get there.

We are definitely not giving the green light here for the exploiters to run wild. What we are saying is that you won't be banned, no questions asked, if you perform an exploit on the TC.

How I interpret this policy change is like this. It is okay to perform an exploit on TC as long as:

1. Your actions are not griefing other players.

2. You immediately (and privately) report all details of how you performed the exploit to the appropriate staff and do not tell anyone else about it.

3. You DO NOT continue to perform the exploit on the TC, even after reporting it.

You find it, you report it, you keep quiet about it to your friends and you don't use it again.

Unfortunately, we have had staff members misbehave in the past. If you think that Staff are not watched for these sort of things, you are mistaken.

I fully understand we cant have players afraid to report things out of fear of being banned....

I fully understand this is a touchy topic and there truly cannot be a form of perma banning those who exploit on accident or to test and report.......

But cheating on purpose without reporting it only to "see the light" and turn around and mulipulate a way back in? Thats the cheaters mentality..... the end does not justify the means in those cases.

Its one thing to stumble upon, or test something to see if it can be exploited AND THEN REPORTING IT....

Its another thing to defraud the system with intent.

Purposely digging through the source code with intent, or using 3rd party programs, no matter what the excuse or knowlege gained does not warrant reinstatement...at best let them play when released after thinking over what they have done to alienate themselfs by cheating.


come on does this sound reasonable?

defendent - "excuse me your honor, but, but, this is how I robbed the bank"

judge- " oh great thanks for telling us, this will better the banks security in the future, not only can you return to society, but here keep all the money you stole to"

most games ask the non-cheating community to look for and inform of any cheat programs or exploits and hmmm BAN cheaters...its a well known working way......some even reward those who report 3rd party programs that could be used to exploit a system.

When you let people back for exposing how they cheated so they can regain what they earned because of their greed, you are indeed giving them and others the geen light.



The only thing I'm afraid of is saying stuff and instead of it being took for what it is, in hopes it could shed some light onto things as a devils advocate.......that hardships are seen and I am punished for my words.




where is the Thunderheart of the swgemu?

Where is that someone to hear and stand up for the community reguardless of which side the community and devs take and voice the concerns of the community?


take a poll, you will be surprized of the outcome I am sure

"zero tolerance ???????? "

Im sorry but this has the "good ole boy network" written all over it and is just setting the stage for lost hope in the future.

(now remeber, one has to look outside the box at all angles when approaching a delicate matter such as this, so please dont hold this personaly against me......)

Hence the unequivocal and absolute change to the policy. Clarification so we can remove people that abuse it permanently in accordance to the policies.

I am confussed.... wasnt that the purpose of the zero tolerance in the 1st place?

[Kyle]

who cares who has jedi or who has what leet items or a plethora of badges. its a test center, its all going to be wiped many times over.

Exactly. And if we can uncover a bunch of exploits this go around, all the better! When things get to suncrusher, there will be an absolute 100% Zero-Tolerance policy, and with this team, hopefully protections in place to stop people in the first place.

[mpv]

Good move dev team, this step was essential prior to any launch of a live server.

/tiphat

[five9]

who cares who has jedi or who has what leet items or a plethora of badges. its a test center, its all going to be wiped many times over.

your right in a way,

but outside those of us who are playing to test, and reporting things....... there are those who are purposely cheating so they can gain everything that goes against the purpose of being here.......



there was once a saying about how soe failed-

"Players began to leave not because of the changes themselves but because of the enormous pile of bugs and inconsistencies SOE introduced"


I love this game, and appreicate those bringing it back, and I hope the past doesnt come around again.

[nkcm]

If people leave, that is their loss.

Before I "complain" I'd like to say THANK YOU to all the devs for your hard work and allowing me to play a game that I missed since NGE.

With that said and with all due respect, do you work for SOE? I ask this because SOE had a penchant to ignore the community. It appears that some of the staff here have fallen into that same trend.

It's not about having an Exploitation team or change in policy; it's about the questionable character of a member on said team.

[roodypooh]

Exactly. And if we can uncover a bunch of exploits this go around, all the better! When things get to suncrusher, there will be an absolute 100% Zero-Tolerance policy, and with this team, hopefully protections in place to stop people in the first place.

until another buddy or same buddy is caught yet again on SC and the good ole boy higher ups make him yet another member of the team and create another "team" to check this or that and let him off scott free again

[Lazerbrick]

Kyle, do you really think that the benefits that this team provides outweigh the fact that "your" community is once again full of the people that make such a team necessary? Is the project this desperate that your "negotiating with terrorists"?

[Yhor]

until another buddy or same buddy is caught yet again on SC and the good ole boy higher ups make him yet another member of the team and create another "team" to check this or that and let him off scott free again

I think this sums up many people's concern. It certainly is my point of view.

[MarlonB]

About damn time ...

[Vlada]

This actually makes much more sense.

Though the community and developers don't always see eye to eye, sometimes unpopular measures are needed to ensure further improvement of server security and overall project progress.

[leimrey]

Ok, so you think that certain people are the pioneers of these hacks hahaha these are the henchmen. Do you really think they created these hacks its most likely a simple 3rd party program that works for many games. What good would it do to hire the henchmen that simply downloaded and hit a hotkey?

[roodypooh]

This actually makes much more sense.

Though the community and developers don't always see eye to eye, sometimes unpopular measures are needed to ensure further improvement of server security and overall project progress.

if that is truely te case which i highly doubt there is NO reason for any member of this made up team to be on TC... Like Kyle said they have private server/servers they use. Let Aushor and the rest of the hackers screw up the private server. No reason to have them on regular TC if they have private servers that could be tested on and still use the bug tracker or whatever to report hacks/exploits.... But sadly you'll see things back to what they were acouple days ago.

He'll log into game start hackin exploitin and griefing players and now nothing can be done cause now he's with his buddies in title and there is no true accountability.

[Vlock]

a lot of crying over exploting. FINDING these exploits is a good thing. So long as it is reported, and the "exploiter" is willing to help in order to secure it from happening again.

This is a test center. not a play server. Dont get so upset about someone exploiting. Id rather them do it here, and have the exploit fixed, than have them do it on a live server where it will cause serious grief and damage.

Stop worrying about your own fun in gaming and help test the bugs. Find exploits so we can fix them now.

[Vlada]

if that is truely te case which i highly doubt there is NO reason for any member of this made up team to be on TC... Like Kyle said they have private server/servers they use. Let Aushor and the rest of the hackers screw up the private server. No reason to have them on regular TC if they have private servers that could be tested on and still use the bug tracker or whatever to report hacks/exploits.... But sadly you'll see things back to what they were acouple days ago.


Stop blaming only one person for everything you think is wrong, Ashur is not the only one that was hacking or that got banned. I have seen 3 or 4 black names for <STORM> and no one seems to mention them.

As for screwing up servers you seem to be forgetting that the whole point of TC is for us to try to screw it up as much as we can, so all bugs, exploits, opportunity for hacks, bad code can be exposed, reported and fixed. Somewhere in the process people confused this for a live server and started treating it as such.

I'm sure when SC launches, no hacks or exploits will be allowed, but until then remember that this is a test server and your gaming experience and enjoyment are not a priority atm.

EDIT:

a lot of crying over exploting. FINDING these exploits is a good thing. So long as it is reported, and the "exploiter" is willing to help in order to secure it from happening again.

This is a test center. not a play server. Dont get so upset about someone exploiting. Id rather them do it here, and have the exploit fixed, than have them do it on a live server where it will cause serious grief and damage.

Stop worrying about your own fun in gaming and help test the bugs. Find exploits so we can fix them now.

Basically the same thing i posted, nice to see I'm not alone.

[Ekaika]

Did anyone see "Catch Me If You Can?"

[kelharis]

Did anyone see "Catch Me If You Can?"

Yes. Does this imply that the Dev team had no idea how to fix the problems, so must "hire" the ones who are hacking to tell them what they did? Because from previous posts it was made clear that the Dev team can and will spot everything, and that SC will not be able to be exploited or hacked.

I understand why the exploits/hacks need to be found. If those responsible truly care about the Emu project, let them help to fix it. And then once SC goes live, give them a 3 month ban from the server.

[roodypooh]

Stop blaming only one person for everything you think is wrong, Ashur is not the only one that was hacking or that got banned. I have seen 3 or 4 black names for <STORM> and no one seems to mention them.

As for screwing up servers you seem to be forgetting that the whole point of TC is for us to try to screw it up as much as we can, so all bugs, exploits, opportunity for hacks, bad code can be exposed, reported and fixed. Somewhere in the process people confused this for a live server and started treating it as such.


i have every right to blame the one person. he's the one thats coming back before the let the othrs return sooner or later. you also seem to forget about the griefing. there has been no guarrantee that he isn't going o just log in and start being a ***** to anyone he see's just so he can get rocks off.

As far as you this is a tc we need yadda yadda.... gee lets see if it wasn't for these guys we wouldn't be having this horrid lag ingame from the program that put in to detect them hackin. We have had enough issues ingame cause of people like him and his "Guild" and the last thing we need is more of it.

i know its a tc but giving a person who clearly has no reguard for the playing and or testing of others and takes every opprotunity to grief just cause he feels its fun ad now having a badge to back him up is just going to makes him and any others of like mind to be that much more of a ***** to people ingame.

Take your own words you realy want to be out in the world testing/playing and have some one like that with a badge decide hey its give vlada hell ingame day and grief you or whoever he happens to run across at that momnt?

i think not

[Ekaika]

Yes. Does this imply that the Dev team had no idea how to fix the problems, so must "hire" the ones who are hacking to tell them what they did? Because from previous posts it was made clear that the Dev team can and will spot everything, and that SC will not be able to be exploited or hacked.

I understand why the exploits/hacks need to be found. If those responsible truly care about the Emu project, let them help to fix it. And then once SC goes live, give them a 3 month ban from the server.

That's not how the movie went.. but no. However, it is true that we didn't know about every possible exploit prior to finding them being conducted. Would you expect us to? Has any MMO ever released with zero holes? We're not asking people to fix them, we're asking people to find them.

Will we eventually find out if people are cheating? Yes, for a number of reasons. Will we act on it? You betcha.

[xomm]

With all due respect, this post simply seems like it's saying "Hey, if you hack, come apologize to us, work with us, and we'll unban you."

I simply don't understand it... If someone is caught exploiting (and I think I'm not the only one who'll agree with this) they shouldn't be brought back. Is he back, or is he just working with the team?

What's to say Ashur won't be doing this again? Will he be watched to make sure? Is this how everyone else will be treated that cooperates with you for exploiting?

blah blah.... :lightsaber:

[GestorterEngel]

if that is truely te case which i highly doubt there is NO reason for any member of this made up team to be on TC... Like Kyle said they have private server/servers they use. Let Aushor and the rest of the hackers screw up the private server. No reason to have them on regular TC if they have private servers that could be tested on and still use the bug tracker or whatever to report hacks/exploits.... But sadly you'll see things back to what they were acouple days ago.

He'll log into game start hackin exploitin and griefing players and now nothing can be done cause now he's with his buddies in title and there is no true accountability.

i have every right to blame the one person. he's the one thats coming back before the let the othrs return sooner or later. you also seem to forget about the griefing. there has been no guarrantee that he isn't going o just log in and start being a ***** to anyone he see's just so he can get rocks off.

As far as you this is a tc we need yadda yadda.... gee lets see if it wasn't for these guys we wouldn't be having this horrid lag ingame from the program that put in to detect them hackin. We have had enough issues ingame cause of people like him and his "Guild" and the last thing we need is more of it.

i know its a tc but giving a person who clearly has no reguard for the playing and or testing of others and takes every opprotunity to grief just cause he feels its fun ad now having a badge to back him up is just going to makes him and any others of like mind to be that much more of a ***** to people ingame.

Take your own words you realy want to be out in the world testing/playing and have some one like that with a badge decide hey its give vlada hell ingame day and grief you or whoever he happens to run across at that momnt?

i think not

More than I could ever say. These are the concerns. Everyone is looking over that. No one cares about Ashor, or the others, or whoever it was that got caught. It's the people who are allowed back. It's the fact they took advantage and there's no promise that it won't happen again and now they're "working" with staff who will most likely look over all of these problems if they do get repeated. No one is complaining that the people who come across exploits are helping, it's just the ones who keep on doing this even after the "reports", and the ones who are griefing many other players ruining their testing.

[Ekaika]

It was clearly stated that if anyone who's been given the opportunity to help identify and rectify exploits does what you're indicating, they'll be blacklisted.

[Vlada]

Everything done is and will be for the good of the project. Community doesn't have to like it, but will have to accept it.

[MarlonB]

Funny though ... I actually did report my findings to the appropriate people ... and a while back I did apply for a QA function where i've put in my application that I think they need to add an "exploit/hack" department .. and didn't get a reply at all .... on anything.

Now .. suddenly a exploiting team has been set up with a guy abusing and exploiting.
Kinda reverse world ..


Ah well ... at least action is being taken ..

[Draacco]

Doublestandard.


Guess its good to be friends with the Dev's...

If they aren't here to play the game as its intended to be played, they should in no way be associated with helping test content.

They aren't testing the game, they are exploiting it and the rest that are here to help move this game in a direction for everyones enjoyment when it goes live.

I'm an old fart, been in just about every mmo beta and live game since before EQ1. You promote this kind of behavior by turning a blind eye for your friends seems kinda odd considering the facts.

If it wasn't such a high visability with this particular case probably wouldn't mean anything at all. This was very public and allowing this / these players to continue while the rest of us are here in the highest spirit of the gaming community to play the game as it is intended to be played. If you're going for something else let us know.

Might as well give us a .teleportwaypoint command to help us with poi's. I mean how big you want the grey area to be.

There are more than enough honest, die-hard swg fans to help you test this emu without having to have known cheaters and hackers creating such a problem for the playerbase.

[Ferren]

Personally I would much rather see these people permabanned then running around the server but this decision is probably best for the entire project in the long run. Some people used hacks, there are always going to be hackers on every game you play and cheaters in everything you do. Let the staff use these clowns to prevent further hacks. Fine.

What right do you have to complain? You're playing a free test center for an open source project and at the end of the day the server gets wiped and every character and item is deleted.

****ing get over it.

[badboy09]

I agree with kyle about the hacking part but other people are making there mind up on other stuff, but what ever is best for the community I am behind it.

[rubadum]

Cmon guys, give them a break. Remember the devs are unpaid people working for you, to bring something back which was once lost.

If you want to criticise and complain, go pay $13 a month to SWG Official, where you can compain all you like. Personally I applaud the work and decisions made by the EMU team, especially their resolve to listen to the criticisms of the community and make tough decisions when they have to.

Keep up the gr8 work.

[torbjorn]

Cmon guys, give them a break. Remember the devs are unpaid people working for you, to bring something back which was once lost.

If you want to criticise and complain, go pay $13 a month to SWG Official, where you can compain all you like. Personally I applaud the work and decisions made by the EMU team, especially their resolve to listen to the criticisms of the community and make tough decisions when they have to.

Keep up the gr8 work.

They're not working for us at all.

On a side note, since you don't need me, or any of the other dozens of testers I know, I can just leave now and wait for suncrusher? You have an official testing team now, so we can all just leave and wait for 1.0 server code to be released.

I'm sure I, or my friends, are not the only people who are going to be leaving, and I guarantee you suncrusher will be empty when it goes live.

It's nice to know SoE is back to running this thing.

[mijom]

You have an official testing team now.

They've had it for long time now, it's called QA. Your acting like they will be unbanning everyone who got banned instead of few select ones who will not be part of Official staff and are under monitoring.


I guarantee you suncrusher will be empty when it goes live.


:D:D

[mpv]

They're not working for us at all.

On a side note, since you don't need me, or any of the other dozens of testers I know, I can just leave now and wait for suncrusher? You have an official testing team now, so we can all just leave and wait for 1.0 server code to be released.

I'm sure I, or my friends, are not the only people who are going to be leaving, and I guarantee you suncrusher will be empty when it goes live.

It's nice to know SoE is back to running this thing.

You can't please all the people all of the time. You need to give the dev team a break and trust that they know what's best for the continued development effort.

What they have achieved so far is nothing short of spectacular and comparing them to SOE is a kick in the teeth they do not deserve.

As far as SunCrusher goes I disagree with you that it will be empty. I think it will be the best funded and most active server, with the strong probability that it will most accurately reflect the game as it was intended.

The current problem with hacking will hopefully be mostly addressed before live and with the development knowledge in this current team should give the best chance for future protection against hacking (imo).

[torbjorn]

They've had it for long time now, it's called QA. Your acting like they will be unbanning everyone who got banned instead of few select ones who will not be part of Official staff and are under monitoring.



:D:D

Ashur was banned for speed hacking/exploiting while griefing a players.

why should he be unbanned?

[Ferren]

I'm sure I, or my friends, are not the only people who are going to be leaving, and I guarantee you suncrusher will be empty when it goes live.

It's nice to know SoE is back to running this thing.

I lol'd for days

[Oru]

I think there has been some miss-communication. We are definitely listening to the community and that is why we were very serious about the zero-tolerancy towards the exploiters. After we made the decision, we have realized that this will hinder the project while we are in development. That being said we lighten the policy up so we give a second chance for them so they can help fill in these holes. However this does not mean they can cheat, grief or exploit anymore! These things will go privately and not on the public test center. In case they are caught again, we say goodbye to them for good.

I hope this will help understand why we have come to this decision. Besides our will to step up against hackers, this will benefit everyone in the long run.

[torbjorn]

I think there has been some miss-communication. We are definitely listening to the community and that is why we were very serious about the zero-tolerancy towards the exploiters. After we made the decision, we have realized that this will hinder the project while we are in development. That being said we lighten the policy up so we give a second chance for them so they can help fill in these holes. However this does not mean they can cheat, grief or exploit anymore! These things will go privately and not on the public test center. In case they are caught again, we say goodbye to them for good.

I hope this will help understand why we have come to this decision. Besides our will to step up against hackers, this will benefit everyone in the long run.

This is chance number 3? maybe even a higher number? For ashur.

How many will he get? Editing the client is against the EULA (SoE's EULA), and that is what Ashur has been doing.

[zetlaux]

As we are still in the Development phase, I don't see a zero-tolerance policy on exploiting being very helpful. From a Development perspective, we NEED players to find these exploits and hacks and inform us about them, so that we can code the server to prevent their use in the future live servers, like Thoop said.

We cannot have players being afraid to find and report such things out of fear of being banned/deleted. We all know that once this is live, there will be plenty of those types hacking away and disrupting play on a live server if they can. We need to find and fix these issues before we get there.

We are definitely not giving the green light here for the exploiters to run wild. What we are saying is that you won't be banned, no questions asked, if you perform an exploit on the TC.

How I interpret this policy change is like this. It is okay to perform an exploit on TC as long as:

1. Your actions are not griefing other players.

2. You immediately (and privately) report all details of how you performed the exploit to the appropriate staff and do not tell anyone else about it.

3. You DO NOT continue to perform the exploit on the TC, even after reporting it.

You find it, you report it, you keep quiet about it to your friends and you don't use it again.

Unfortunately, we have had staff members misbehave in the past. If you think that Staff are not watched for these sort of things, you are mistaken.

I couldn't have said that any better. The whole time I was reading all of this zero tolerance posts, I thought to myself, "Great. So we're going to wait for Suncrusher for all these exploiters to come out of their shells."

I trust the developers. After years of work put into this project, I doubt they are ready to throw it all down the drain quite yet.

[Kyrm347]

I hate Exploiters (yes I mean hate), but I also know that playing a MMO means that by default I am choosing to enter a game where I must share that game world with those who see nothing wrong with exploiting... even if it is against the rules. Even though I am perfectly willing to follow each and every rule to the letter does not mean all others will do the same... This is a fact of MMO gaming, and life overall. Therefore I am pleased to have read this announcement.

It is more of a, "Hey, if you hack, you are going to work with us so that we can prevent other people from hacking if they use the same method. Otherwise we're going to ban you and delete all your stuff."

Since we are still in development stages and there are still going to be wipes, the main goal is to write code that will prevent these hacks. So if we can do it now, before we get to v1.0, then that is beneficial to all of us after v1.0.

The main point being, we are still in development and we want to write code to prevent people from using these hacks. We are trying to improve our code to make it so these hacks will be of no use.

This makes sense in a twisted sort of way... and since the gaming world is usually a twisted sort of place, then while SWGEmu is in development why shouldn't the Dev Team use the services of Players that have the ambition, skills, talents, and the mindset to help them identify and fix potential exploits? Even if I hate how these Players play the game, These Players can find exploits that my pointy little mind would never dream of. Just make sure you have a "surveillence Droid" watching these Players close, you know... use common sense flavored with street smarts.

I cannot make a judgement call as to whether Ashur is or is NOT an exploiter, but if the Dev Team believes he can be an asset on the Exploit Team, then so be it. The important point is that now is the time to identify the exploits and squash them. Thank you Dev Team for being open minded enough to consider using the talents of all kinds of Players. Kudos.

[kalaminu]

/emote grabs popcorn and intently watches

let whatever happens, happen.


*pulls up a chair and starts pinching the popcorn whilst watching collective panties getting in a bunch*

[Fierce]

I couldn't have said that any better. The whole time I was reading all of this zero tolerance posts, I thought to myself, "Great. So we're going to wait for Suncrusher for all these exploiters to come out of their shells."

I trust the developers. After years of work put into this project, I doubt they are ready to throw it all down the drain quite yet.

What he said

[Valkyra]

I think there has been some miss-communication. We are definitely listening to the community and that is why we were very serious about the zero-tolerancy towards the exploiters. After we made the decision, we have realized that this will hinder the project while we are in development. That being said we lighten the policy up so we give a second chance for them so they can help fill in these holes. However this does not mean they can cheat, grief or exploit anymore! These things will go privately and not on the public test center. In case they are caught again, we say goodbye to them for good.

I hope this will help understand why we have come to this decision. Besides our will to step up against hackers, this will benefit everyone in the long run.


Frankly, I don't agree with any of this. At all.

Ok, so why was there no post of any kind made about this in the staff forum for the entire staff to decide upon? It's pretty much just what the higher-ups decided, as I only see them posting in this thread how this is a great idea.

Maybe people don't know this, but a ZERO-TOLERANCE policy is just that. ZERO tolerance. It doesn't mean you can just ban people then go back and say "Oh wait, let's unban these griefing hackers, OH WAIT! Let's give them a staff position to find our exploits! The community will never know."

These are not the kind of people to be given staff privileges to. Sosko, one of the leaders of STORM, crashed the SWGEmu ventrilo several times, harassed members via Ventrilo exploits, then he comes on the IRC and ban evades MANY times, spewing his slander, lies, and rage.

But wait, you guys see fit to not only UNBAN them (which goes against the policy we enstated as a TEAM in the first place), but give them staff positions, since OUR QA TEAM WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH IN FINDING EXPLOITS.

So let me get this straight again.

"I'm Ashur, a retard that loves to flame on the forums, cause a TON of grief in game too and I love hacking! I was banned because of this, but I kissed enough ass to not only get unbanned, but get a staff position too!"

That's EXACTLY how it seems.


There's so much wrong with this.

A. You don't just make such an important decision to those who have higher leverage in the staff.
B. You don't go back on a global policy that we all decided.
C. STORM guild is retarded, full of griefing hackers, EVERYONE KNOWS IT, and you unban them and give them staff positions.


...

This has to be the biggest troll of all time.

[Fierce]

a. You don't just make such an important decision to those who have higher leverage in the staff.
B. You don't go back on a global policy that we all decided.
C. Storm guild is retarded, full of griefing hackers, everyone knows it, and you unban them and give them staff positions.


co-co-co-combo!!!!

[kalaminu]

They're not working for us at all. <---- No. You're right. They are working for themselves and generously letting US play the game THEY have reverse engineered!!!

On a side note, since you don't need me, or any of the other dozens of testers I know, I can just leave now and wait for suncrusher? You have an official testing team now, so we can all just leave and wait for 1.0 server code to be released. <---- Well if that is your attitude.....cya, don't let the door hit ya on the way out!!

I'm sure I, or my friends, are not the only people who are going to be leaving, and I guarantee you suncrusher will be empty when it goes live. <---- The only comment I got for this statement is HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

It's nice to know SoE is back to running this thing.

Seriously. Where do you people get off moaning at these people that are developing this game for us to play again in it's true form before soe took too much lsd?

If you don't like their decisions, tough sh!t, move along.

Seriously you people do my nut in.

[leimrey]

1 hacker - 2 developers = Fail

whats going on here

[torbjorn]

Seriously. Where do you people get off moaning at these people that are developing this game for us to play again in it's true form before soe took too much lsd?

If you don't like their decisions, tough sh!t, move along.

Seriously you people do my nut in.

I'll be the one laughing when I'm right.

[nkcm]

It was clearly stated that if anyone who's been given the opportunity to help identify and rectify exploits does what you're indicating, they'll be blacklisted.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but the purpose of the exploitation team is to find exploits. No one is questioning that it's a great addition; the conflict is that a known cheater and griefer is now charged with finding the exploits. Ashor has shown nothing to show that he can be trusted with such an important task.

What kind of reassurances do we have that he won't abuse an exploit? Assume briefly that he finds an exploitation that allows him to train boxes without costing skill points (perhaps through a client hack). Will he report the exploit or keep it a secret (so that when v1.0 is out, he can use the exploit for a huge advantage)? He has been giving the “green light” to find all the exploits he can. Ashor has already shown a lack of ethics and morality in regards to the swgemu community.

This will get a little redundant (my apologies). Suppose he finds an exploit that he can “hide” until SC is released, abuses it to get an unfair advantage with confidence that he won't get caught, and finally reports it claiming that he just found it. He has already shown his willingness to abuse exploits, so this is something he is now in a position to do. He can not be trusted.

Flame on!

[Tigerfang]

I am sorry but these actions have just done serious damage to the project. Lies, mistrust and lazyness

This is not just about the speed hacks. Ashor intentionally disrupted non storm guild jedi unlocks just so that they can control the jedi population. This is not to do with speed hacking and alone should have been recieving some form of ban. If we cannot get him on speed hacks, we should have got rid of him totally

enough said

[Itek]

Say goodbye to suncrusher :(

[DefectedBac]

The problem is the sence of justice. You say we don't have a "right" to complain, but justice always works above rights. Even a child has an understanding of justice. When fairness goes out the window it is quite natural for people to get pissed off. And believe me, its hard to restore trust in such a blatantly corrupt system.

[Vlada]

Say goodbye to suncrusher :(

You do realize that we can all say goodbye to Pre-CU if Devs decide not to finish the project, or do you want to go to ANH and start making demands there, see how they will react?

[Ruledo]

Exploits are bugs that usually aren't reported by players so that they can be used for personal gain.
Maybe the Devs and CSRs are tired of these?
Aren't you?
EcyNAAUvtj0
<STORM> has been disbanded.

[MarlonB]

You do realize that we can all say goodbye to Pre-CU if Devs decide not to finish the project, or do you want to go to ANH and start making demands there, see how they will react?

True ... but only as much as this project needs a supporting community.
One doesn't do well without the other.

[nkcm]

Exploits are bugs that usually aren't reported by players so that they can be used for personal gain.


Exactly. An exploitation team is a welcomed addition. Making Ashor a member of that team? Not so much.

[Itek]

You do realize that we can all say goodbye to Pre-CU if Devs decide not to finish the project, or do you want to go to ANH and start making demands there, see how they will react?

Demands?

[jermat]

a few points worth making here.

1. ashur has gotten a bad wrap because of a few people.
2. obviously noone has a clue how speed hacking works since its believed to be a keybind
3. THIS IS A TEST CENTER (generic i know but has to be said)
4. ashur was not the main culprit in all this
5. Bootsy is the sexiest sullastan ever

[kalaminu]

you do realize that we can all say goodbye to pre-cu if devs decide not to finish the project, or do you want to go to anh and start making demands there, see how they will react?


qfe!!!

[nkcm]

1. ashur has gotten a bad wrap because of a few people.


No one made him grief and exploit. He did that himself.

[Malas]

My god you guys whine alot. Pretty sad

[ymerej]

We jail are petty thieves and put into office our greatest.
Aesop

[azmara]

I agree please pass out the cheese to go with all this whine.

Second point one word "Forgiveness", havent you ever screwed up...unless you personally know the people involved and know what speed hacking is you are in no position to make any judgement.

I trust the devs and support them because anyone that has put blood, sweat, and tears into something will always do what they feel in their heart is right.

[DevDep]

looks like a bunch of people are just pissed off that a cheater got Jedi before them.

[Draeth]

To anyone complaining about Ashur's participation in the explotation team, and the policy regarding warnings/reports:

Please consider for a moment that an exploit is, in fact, a type of bug. Specifically it is a type of bug in the code of a game that allows a user to gain an advantage not within the intended vision of the developers of the game. Exploits, like all other bugs, can be extremely difficult to find, and require documentation and reproducability to fix.
If Kyle says that Ashur was very helpful in the analysis of the speed hack exploit, enough so to make him an official team member, even, I'm willing to accept that information without argument. After all, he has nothing to gain by lying here. It's not like this is his job.

To Ashur:

I'm glad to hear that reports of your behaviour were exaggerated. Also, I kinda figured some of the accusations regarding speed hacking would have something to do with Force Run. XD Do us proud catching and fixing those exploits.



-Draeth.

[Tigerfang]

hackers are not screwing up - they are intentionally damaging the game for others. You dont do it by accident and you dont then grief people. If he came back after 6 months and said sorry - thats a different point.

There has been only days between his ban and his reactivation. Thats the issue right here. Also the dev's u talk about and i quote

"I trust the devs and support them because anyone that has put blood, sweat, and tears into something"

a number of these staff have detagged from the project and some have gone on official leave as of seing this post. BECAUSE they were not involved in this decision and was made unilaterally by people who are friends with storm and the hackers.

That does not make it best for the project, i am all for an anti hacking team or what ever but ashor was not the maker of the hack, he only deleted it and therefore his involvement has nothing to do with skills being used to improve the project. There are plently of people already IN the projects players that are reformed ( for years ) hackers / griefers or what ever who could be called upon to be in this team and do it with respect. They have as much as offered their services to members of staff and they have not been included to this team.

[Tigerfang]

I'm glad to hear that reports of your behaviour were exaggerated. Also, I kinda figured some of the accusations regarding speed hacking would have something to do with Force Run. XD Do us proud catching and fixing those exploits.



-Draeth.

He was caught on fraps intentionally griefing jedi unlockers. Im sorry but you need to actually learn the details before you comment any more

[Malas]

He was caught on fraps intentionally griefing jedi unlockers. Im sorry but you need to actually learn the details before you comment any more

Cry more?

[Tigerfang]

Cry more?

helps if i care what a mis informed player thinks

[zetlaux]

Frankly, I don't agree with any of this. At all.

Ok, so why was there no post of any kind made about this in the staff forum for the entire staff to decide upon? It's pretty much just what the higher-ups decided, as I only see them posting in this thread how this is a great idea.

Maybe people don't know this, but a ZERO-TOLERANCE policy is just that. ZERO tolerance. It doesn't mean you can just ban people then go back and say "Oh wait, let's unban these griefing hackers, OH WAIT! Let's give them a staff position to find our exploits! The community will never know."

These are not the kind of people to be given staff privileges to. Sosko, one of the leaders of STORM, crashed the SWGEmu ventrilo several times, harassed members via Ventrilo exploits, then he comes on the IRC and ban evades MANY times, spewing his slander, lies, and rage.

But wait, you guys see fit to not only UNBAN them (which goes against the policy we enstated as a TEAM in the first place), but give them staff positions, since OUR QA TEAM WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH IN FINDING EXPLOITS.

So let me get this straight again.

"I'm Ashur, a retard that loves to flame on the forums, cause a TON of grief in game too and I love hacking! I was banned because of this, but I kissed enough ass to not only get unbanned, but get a staff position too!"

That's EXACTLY how it seems.


There's so much wrong with this.

A. You don't just make such an important decision to those who have higher leverage in the staff.
B. You don't go back on a global policy that we all decided.
C. STORM guild is retarded, full of griefing hackers, EVERYONE KNOWS IT, and you unban them and give them staff positions.


...

This has to be the biggest troll of all time.

Thinking about it like that, given the history of these individuals cited, I have to agree that Valkyra has some legitimate points here. These people do not need to be staff, they need to be on the staff's leash, licking their boots while they sniff out exploits. Only upon finding an exploit do we then give them 1 (and not more than 1) tootsie roll- then we kick them in the kidney and make them keep sniffing. Their forum titles should be "Slave Exploit Sniffers."

[Draeth]

He was caught on fraps intentionally griefing jedi unlockers. Im sorry but you need to actually learn the details before you comment any more

Link?

[roodypooh]

Thinking about it like that, given the history of these individuals cited, I have to agree that Valkyra has some legitimate points here. These people do not need to be staff, they need to be on the staff's leash, licking their boots while they sniff out exploits. Only upon finding an exploit do we then give them 1 (and not more than 1) tootsie roll- then we kick them in the kidney and make them keep sniffing. Their forum titles should be "Slave Exploit Sniffers."

Sadly its pretty clear that they don't give a damn about what anyone says. they pretty much made that clear when they just started unbanning and promoting without any discussion with the rest of the staff.


So much for all that talk from them awhile back that they don't play favorites and treat every member of the community the same.

To all the staff who have come out against these decisions openly in te community or even in private to your fellow staff members you guys have my full support on this.

To the staff who pulled this crap i say i guess the community was right with the playing favorites and letting them <storm> do what they want with no worries about anything happening to them.

i guess treating your fellow community members like **** will eventually lead to staff positions in the future for anyone interested in applying.

[Aeden]

While we still are taking a hardline on exploiting, the staff realizes that during development, there is a need to expose problems before we can enact the Zero-Tolerance policy as needed on a finished server.

With this announcement, we are officially organizing the Exploitation Team as a part of our Quality Assurance team. They will have the sole purpose of uncovering exploits and being a point of contact for community members that do find exploits. More information will be released on this team in the coming weeks.

To clear up a sore subject now that we have all the facts, I would like to address the recent banning of a known exploiting guild. Contrary to public belief and statements made by staff members, no one was able to exploit their way to jedi. The community member in question, Ashur, has in fact been extremely helpful in helping uncover serious Test Center flaws and is part of our Exploitation Team, but due to some communication breakdowns has received an unfair reputation. He did in fact get caught speed hacking, but was immediately cooperative. The subsequent reports are untrue. He was accused of speed hacking publicly, when in fact it was a legitimate use of FR3 which, like many of the jedi skills, are getting there first real tests and many are very bugged and broken. A number of the other members of the guild will continue to stay banned permanently because of their unwillingness to cooperate and immaturity in the matter, but a handful of the mature, and talented members have chosen to leave the Dark Side, and use their powers for good. Please welcome these people and treat them accordingly.

To reiterate the previous post, behavior from the community, and sadly, even staff,will no longer be tolerated when it is designed to undermine the project or community.

Regards,

We know where you are going with this.
I have to admit it is very clever in a way, and that it must feel good to be able to solve two problems by combining them into a solution. -1 x -1 = 1 ....we can do the maths too. I do believe it is brilliant.
But no matter how brilliant the idea, the application is bound to fail.

Of course, anyone with a little common sense will agree with the Devs to say that hack testing must be performed before the SC goes live, and after all this is a Test center and that's what it's here for.

But what most us can't understand though, is why you chose those people to do the job? This "handful of the mature, and talented members" have been allowed back on the server. Fine.(so much for the zero-tolerance policy that the majority of us supported). Now they should sit in a corner, think about what they did and thank Devs everyday for the opportunity they were given. An opportunity they were given several times for some of them.
But there is no reason they should be given a position of authority on the EMU. Nor any responsibilities.
Forget the "catch me if you can" fantasy, as stated before, these people didn't invent anything brilliant nor did anything any other person with very little computer skills could do.
Set up an exploitation team, that's a great idea. We all support this. But don't publicly explain this whole redemption business to us, because no matter the arguments, we won't believe in it.
We don't want asschickens in the SWGemu team. By allowing them in, you're only just insulting the former members of QA.

Maybe I'm a little bold again here. But when SC goes live, you will have to face many fierce debates with the community and there will be bolder people.
Maybe I should keep being more and more impudent as everyday goes by. Who knows, I may end up in the Uprising Prevention Team.

-Hayyah-

*EDIT* +1 for Valkyra and +1 for the "Slave Exploit Sniffers" title.

[Oru]

Frankly, I don't agree with any of this. At all.

Ok, so why was there no post of any kind made about this in the staff forum for the entire staff to decide upon? It's pretty much just what the higher-ups decided, as I only see them posting in this thread how this is a great idea.

Maybe people don't know this, but a ZERO-TOLERANCE policy is just that. ZERO tolerance. It doesn't mean you can just ban people then go back and say "Oh wait, let's unban these griefing hackers, OH WAIT! Let's give them a staff position to find our exploits! The community will never know."

These are not the kind of people to be given staff privileges to. Sosko, one of the leaders of STORM, crashed the SWGEmu ventrilo several times, harassed members via Ventrilo exploits, then he comes on the IRC and ban evades MANY times, spewing his slander, lies, and rage.

But wait, you guys see fit to not only UNBAN them (which goes against the policy we enstated as a TEAM in the first place), but give them staff positions, since OUR QA TEAM WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH IN FINDING EXPLOITS.

So let me get this straight again.

"I'm Ashur, a retard that loves to flame on the forums, cause a TON of grief in game too and I love hacking! I was banned because of this, but I kissed enough ass to not only get unbanned, but get a staff position too!"

That's EXACTLY how it seems.


There's so much wrong with this.

A. You don't just make such an important decision to those who have higher leverage in the staff.
B. You don't go back on a global policy that we all decided.
C. STORM guild is retarded, full of griefing hackers, EVERYONE KNOWS IT, and you unban them and give them staff positions.


...

This has to be the biggest troll of all time.

I can't speak on behalf of the whole team but when this idea came to my table, i said go with zero-tolerance without any hesitation. Then some of the developers raised their voices, how are we going to find these exploits if we restrict and punish these hackers. On the other hand we must eliminate the system being used for their advantage and provide a good testing environment for all the other players.

So we have adjusted the policy. Was it a rushed decision? Probably. Is there a chance we adjust it even further. Of course! I'am trying to be as open-minded as possible and you should rather come to me directly instead of going to public with complaints like this. The problems raised by many of you here is noted and being considered. It has a valid point, that we should use someone else for the job then the given individuals.

[Aeden]

I can't speak on behalf of the whole team but when this idea came to my table, i said go with zero-tolerance without any hesitation. Then some of the developers raised their voices, how are we going to find these exploits if we restrict and punish these hackers. On the other hand we must eliminate the system being used for their advantage and provide a good testing environment for all the other players.

So we have adjusted the policy. Was it a rushed decision? Probably. Is there a chance we adjust it even further. Of course! I'am trying to be as open-minded as possible and you should rather come to me directly instead of going to public with complaints like this. The problems raised by many of you here is noted and being considered. It has a valid point, that we should use someone else for the job then the given individuals.

Amen

[Tigerfang]

Amen

agreed

[GestorterEngel]

However this does not mean they can cheat, grief or exploit anymore! These things will go privately and not on the public test center. In case they are caught again, we say goodbye to them for good.

I hope this will help understand why we have come to this decision. Besides our will to step up against hackers, this will benefit everyone in the long run.

So are you actually saying he is not allowed back on Test Center and that he will only be allowed on the private test server to be able to further investigate these exploits?

If that is true, then I think alot of people would understand and not be so against what is happening right now.

[SethonC.]

This is a fantastic read. :)

[Aeden]

So are you actually saying he is not allowed back on Test Center and that he will only be allowed on the private test server to be able to further investigate these exploits?

If that is true, then I think alot of people would understand and not be so against what is happening right now.

Just to make things clear. He is already back on the server.
And that is about just right if we believe the latest evidence concerning his ban. The real deal here is the whole QA position business.

[Oru]

So are you actually saying he is not allowed back on Test Center and that he will only be allowed on the private test server to be able to further investigate these exploits?

If that is true, then I think alot of people would understand and not be so against what is happening right now.

That was the plan but now we are back to the drawing table..

[Oru]

Just to make things clear. He is already back on the server.
And that is about just right if we believe the latest evidence concerning his ban. The real deal here is the whole QA position business.

He might be but he is caught on cheating again, the ban will come for good this time.

[GestorterEngel]

Just to make things clear. He is already back on the server.
And that is about just right if we believe the latest evidence concerning his ban. The real deal here is the whole QA position business.

Sigh. This really is a huge mistake.

That was the plan but now we are back to the drawing table..

That really does sadden me. I hope it gets corrected and he is put back on some kind of punishment. It really doesn't seem fair he is able to freely roam around on the TC when he can just as easily help you guys on the private server.

[Timbab]

But doing it on a private server would only be half as fun. :p

[SethonC.]

But doing it on a private server would only be half as fun. :p

^ Couldn't agree more.

[GestorterEngel]

This isn't about him having fun. It's about him being punished and having to work back to respect for what he did. If he shows remorse and gains trust back with working on the private servers, then maybe slowly let him back. Don't give him his jedi back and let him freely run around to cause more grief and hacks.

[jermat]

i think most of you people just want something to ***** and moan about. if its not ashur its going to be something else, like why isnt creature handler in or why dont we have swoops where our player housing etc etc etc. in the past week no one has thought of anything but themselves and jedi. not one post has been constructive, just simple petty attacks on a guy that made a mistake that hes been dealt with and seems everyone is power hungry to have a say in something thats entirely none of there buisness. serious people get a friggin new idea and direct the energy toward that instead of constant banter about ashur

[HeadyGlass]

There's nobody on the private server to grief, why sploit there?
No noobs to /duel /DoT /enddue l/lol /r QQ moar

[SethonC.]

i think most of you people just want something to ***** and moan about. if its not ashur its going to be something else, like why isnt creature handler in or why dont we have swoops where our player housing etc etc etc. in the past week no one has thought of anything but themselves and jedi. not one post has been constructive, just simple petty attacks on a guy that made a mistake that hes been dealt with and seems everyone is power hungry to have a say in something thats entirely none of there buisness. serious people get a friggin new idea and direct the energy toward that instead of constant banter about ashur

*****ing and moaning about *****ing and moaning.

That's new. I like that. :)

[Timbab]

*****ing and moaning about *****ing and moaning.

That's new. I like that. :)

This.

There's nobody on the private server to grief, why sploit there?
No noobs to /duel /DoT /enddue l/lol /r QQ moar

And this.

This isn't about him having fun. It's about him being punished and having to work back to respect for what he did. If he shows remorse and gains trust back with working on the private servers, then maybe slowly let him back. Don't give him his jedi back and let him freely run around to cause more grief and hacks.

Lol, obviously.

[DraGa]

So wait wait wait wait....
-Ashur + Storm hacks & exploits (recorded being caught and admitting it, in both audio and in-game)

-Ashur + Storm gets banned

-We are TOLD by the staff that ALL hacker's, and Ashur characters, were DELETED and BANNED.

-We now are told, his toons were never deleted and he's now been given a staff position?


So, the gist of it is. You can hack all you want until you're caught, and then all you need to do is apologize and "promise" to never do it again. Ashur has been unbanned, his toons never deleted (one or many of which he's exploited MASSIVELY and hacked on to get jedi). Ashur has been given a staff position. Storm, the largest exploiters AND hackers on the Emu project, are back and reformed.

AND, to top it all off Kyle went behind all the other staff's backs and changed the policy.

This will not go without a LARGE portion of the dev team & community leaving the project entirely, how could you think you'll get away with this >_<?!

PS: I'm going to be saddened when the donations for next month only reach about 400-500ish instead of 2grand this month. :(

[edit]:
He might be but he is caught on cheating again, the ban will come for good this time.
He was caught cheating TWICE, banned TWICE. How will a THIRD time be ANY different, let alone public knowledge this time hmmm?

[Merkor]

this complete decision seems like an excuse to unban her friends to me... il hope i understand it wrong..

[Mahonra]

I applaud the creation of an anti-exploit team. I also have faith the dev team will do all they can to preserve the integrity of the server.

However, I do want to point out something I haven't seen mentioned yet

Max said in his post that Ashor WAS caught using speed hacks previously. Max also said Ashor didn't exploit to unlock his Jedi. But don't you think it would be safe to assume Ashor used his speed hack to gather all the POI's and search for rumor NPC's, etc? Clearly the use of a speed hack would SIGNIFICANTLY increase the ease of unlocking Jedi, right? I only mention this as a player who legitimately ran to EVERY single POI in game and spend hours and hours searching for my rumor NPC's WITHOUT using a speedhack of any kind.

How else was he able to unlock so much earlier than ANY other Jedi, and grind to full template so quickly enabling him to kill other Jedi's Mellachie quest in an effort to prevent more from unlocking?

I know a lot of players have done the same as I have, and so it kinda flys in the face to hear it stated that his use of exploits didn't help him unlock at all.

[DraGa]

this complete decision seems like an excuse to unban her friends to me... il hope i understand it wrong..

You sir have gained +10 internets for this. You are 100% correct.

[CapnSwifty]

I know a lot of people are upset about the rubber-banding but some of the posts in this thread sound like an all out witch hunt.

Without the issue coming to light it would not be getting fixed and gone unchecked would have severely impacted the live server when ready.

In a test center there is a very fine line between exploiting and testing.
If an exploit is found, documented and reported then the person that found it is a great tester and not an exploiter.

What I read in the OP is that it wasn't really a client side speed hack in the end. It was a bug with forcerun3. Knowing that the reset timers on a lot of stuff aren't working properly atm this makes a lot of sense to me.

I am glad to hear that thorough communication allowed all the angles to be revealed.

On another note ...

I can see reasons that the found exploits not be public but can also see reasons that they should.

As an example:
I found a crafting experimentation exploit that would allow for more than amazing results on every experimentation. (Am I a cheater for finding it?)
When I reported it I made the bug report Private thinking best not to advertise. It was promptly made public and assigned. It was also fixed on the next server restart :)
Then there was the backpack / stackable container dup exploit.
I ran into this way back when. Added a note to a newly created bug report.
A few days later I found some more information on it but the bug report was moved to a private one, so i was unable to add another note.
During the next few weeks I kept seeing new bug reports being added and made private for the exact same issue.

My question on this matter is ... Was keeping this kind of issue private worth all the extra work it took to keep it that way? IMO removing backpacks and keeping the exploit public would have been a lot less work.

It benefits us all to have every ounce of data at our disposal if usage of that knowledge is pure and honorable but severely raises the potential of misuse by selfish / greedy people and potentially weak willed people that can't contain themselves.

I don't envy the job of drawing the line between viable testing and gross misuse.

I commend the entire staff for their diligent work.

[Kayliaah]

This.

And this.

Lol, obviously.



GTFO my world.





------------------------------------------------------------


Must be the best and worst thread ever.

I highly doubt that whoever used hacks will be of any help in finding exploits, well, I can only think of two honestly, the rest will make it a complete ****ing mess, if the people I think of (from STORM) are in this new team too.


The speedhack was just a third party program, how does that make them useful to find exploits? I wonder, they didn't hack anything themselves.


The saddest thing must be that while we have those hackers as a team now,

we lost two Devs, yeah, awesome...


Everything has already been covered many times, I just hope you people know what you are doing even if I doubt it, seeing even the oldest and biggest Devs confuse themselves trying to find a way to deal with everything and everyone at the same time, changing their mind everyday, it looks like the community by its daily complains is controling the project now and in a bad way.


Everyone deserves a second chance it's true, let's see about a third, fourth, fifth...

"To err is human, to persist in error is diabolical."

[Timbab]

Correction, they're called script kiddies. Calling them hackers is an insult to the hacking community, tbh, lol.

But as Kay said, 3rd party programs are usually the tools used in 'Speedhacking' and things like that.

[jat5560]

If you can't beat them, just let them join you...

****ING PATHETIC

Your team is a bunch of freaking idiots...is this against the rules for me to say? Good, now hire me.

[Broon_2009]

Correction, they're called script kiddies. Calling them hackers is an insult to the hacking community, tbh, lol.

But as Kay said, 3rd party programs are usually the tools used in 'Speedhacking' and things like that.

This

They are NOT ethical hackers by any stretch of the imagination.

[GestorterEngel]

It's terribly said we've lost two DEVs over this and other matters... Where is this team heading?

[Kayliaah]

It's terribly said we've lost two DEVs over this and other matters... Where is this team heading?

http://www.wildaboutmovies.com/images_7/HolePoster.jpg


It's not funny I know.
No idea how to answer.


We cannot always agree with whatever the devs and/or STAFF decide to do.

AT LEAST, we can still show our freaking opinion, it's always been one of the plus over SOE.
Let's not destroy it too.

[jat5560]

From this day forward NOTHING a dev says can be trusted or taken seriously.... good luck, you freakin retards!

[Kayliaah]

From this day forward NOTHING a dev says can be trusted or taken seriously.... good luck, you freakin retards!


Sorry, your opinion doesn't count.

[Shueisha]

If people leave, that is their loss. Recruiting people that can hack our systems is logical and necessary. And yes, this is an open invitation to anyone who wants to try and exploit / hack / crack / dupe / etc. If you can do any of these things, we have a place for you on the Exploitation Team. If you don't report it to the team, we will ban you forever, and delete your characters. Simple, easy, and for the good of the final product. This is a TC, and we need to find the exploits, can any of you complaining make a list of exploits? If the answer is yes, come join the team, if the answer is no, then realize that it's just a TC, and we want the final product to be as exploit proof as possible, and for that we need to hire the best exploiters. Ponder the logic before complaining further.

/Agree 100%, plus an invitation to hack seems fun, if I find any I will report without delay!

[jat5560]

Sorry, your opinion doesn't count.

That's the whole community's opinion.

[sXeKJB]

I can't speak on behalf of the whole team but when this idea came to my table, i said go with zero-tolerance without any hesitation. Then some of the developers raised their voices, how are we going to find these exploits if we restrict and punish these hackers. On the other hand we must eliminate the system being used for their advantage and provide a good testing environment for all the other players.

So we have adjusted the policy. Was it a rushed decision? Probably. Is there a chance we adjust it even further. Of course! I'am trying to be as open-minded as possible and you should rather come to me directly instead of going to public with complaints like this. The problems raised by many of you here is noted and being considered. It has a valid point, that we should use someone else for the job then the given individuals.

Why shouldn't people of the community, whether apart of the development or not, not be able to speak their opinion on a public forum?

I'm for having a hack/exploitation/vulnerability test team of some sort, but like others have said, they did not use their abilities ethically in the first place, therefore I agree with others that if they want to do exploit testing with these players who have not been trustworthy, it should be on a separate private server to keep it private. I think it would have been more wise to create a team from scratch who can prove they are qualified and trustworthy to test and report exploits; also, and asking for people to hack/exploit to get the ability to be apart of this team may not be a wise decision, does this include sending DoS attacks?

[Ekowraith]

Out of curiosity, do you know what zero means?

[Kayliaah]

That's the whole community's opinion.

If you read others' posts you would know that it isn't.

[Uli]

Good luck, I'm pretty sure no one has the ability to hack.

To exploit, yeah anyone can do that however most of the time its either luck or so much effort goes into it you finally find a way.


asking for people to hack/exploit to get the ability to be apart of this team may not be a wise decision, does this include sending DoS attacks?

I'm pretty sure sending DoS attacks, SQL injections etc are not what you really want to do (Well SQL injection i suppose you could but those normally fail unless the people run the server/website/whatever are idiots)

[sXeKJB]

Another question I'd like to bring up is why even publicly announce the "return" of these certain players? Could they not have started from scratch and spent every minute of game trying to exploit? That way nobody in the community would have known about them. It's almost as if they asked for their jedai/griefguild back, and people would have said something seeing ashur/storm on nova.

[MarlonB]

Good luck, I'm pretty sure no one has the ability to hack.



I don't understand your statement?


I was able to give myself unlimited experimentation points using memory hacking for example ... but ... i did report this to Kyle (long time ago), and eventhough he never repsonded to it, he put in an extra check on server side to prevent this from happening.

I also found some queries that didn't have escape strings .. again .. i reported those and they got fixed.

I'm sure given enough time ... more hacks can be found, eventhough so far they have done a really good job at keeping important stuff server side.

[Mahonra]

Another question I'd like to bring up is why even publicly announce the "return" of these certain players? Could they not have started from scratch and spent every minute of game trying to exploit? That way nobody in the community would have known about them. It's almost as if they asked for their jedai/griefguild back, and people would have said something seeing ashur/storm on nova.

EXCELLENT point!

[Benoki]

lots of people seem to keep missing the whole IT'S A TEST SERVER thing.

yeah its nice to play again, totally agree, loving it myself.

so it doesn't really matter to me if people get caught hacking.

its the ones who don't get caught that bother me.

and if a guy does get caught, tells us what he did and helps us fix it, then thats good for us all on that hallowed day that a full server goes live.

right?

why the fuss people?

[Timbab]

Another question I'd like to bring up is why even publicly announce the "return" of these certain players? Could they not have started from scratch and spent every minute of game trying to exploit? That way nobody in the community would have known about them. It's almost as if they asked for their jedai/griefguild back, and people would have said something seeing ashur/storm on nova.

So keeping stuff, things such as big as this 'private' is good? What you don't know can't hurt you attitude, eh?

Besides, it would have come out sooner or later that they're back under staff now, imagine the community response then...

[Kayliaah]

Another question I'd like to bring up is why even publicly announce the "return" of these certain players? Could they not have started from scratch and spent every minute of game trying to exploit? That way nobody in the community would have known about them. It's almost as if they asked for their jedai/griefguild back, and people would have said something seeing ashur/storm on nova.



Well... I don't think lying would make things any better.
Hiding things can be considered as lying.

[Uli]

I was able to give myself unlimited experimentation points using memory hacking for example

Its more how advanced it goes, working out points and all that is honestly very easy and simple to do, there are a lot of other "hacks" which do not require memory editing and some memory editing are not stored as something as easy to lock onto (Experimentation points you just search the number add another search for new number however not everything works like that)

[Ashur]

I see a few people here are trying very good to show their dissapproval towards me, and i want to explain as good as i can about what has happened.and how weve gotten to this point , im willing to answer your concerns as long as they are valid and to the point of recent events.but before that id like to give a brief explanation of whats been going on.
i have been a part of swgemu since it first became public, and i have never done anything to hinder or undermine the development process, i have allways been nice and good to the people that have treated me the same way.


Those that know me know i do not go out of my way to ruin anyones fun.the simple truth is this is a testcenter not a live version by far. and to treat it as a full playable game is just wrong. i did speedhack and am truly sorry for it, look at all the fallout.

and for the people that do not know me, please i beg you too not be so quick to judge me, the community is full of great people that know how one loudmouth can start a entire forum wide flame war. Some of the accusations are so far from the truth its just silly. people often jump on a bandwagon an make posts that are at best troll bait.

to further this, ive deleted my jedi toon, and will take the punishment from the devs/csrs as they see fit, the last thing i want is to have a community that is split up over something like this, so i wish everyone here the best of luck, and i wish the devs the best of luck finishing the game that we all love.


http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/6802/rip1g.jpg
(http://img43.imageshack.us/i/rip1g.jpg/)

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/2141/rip2i.jpg
(http://img34.imageshack.us/i/rip2i.jpg/)

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/3598/rip3.jpg
(http://img194.imageshack.us/i/rip3.jpg/)

RIP JEDITOON, he was the best jerry, the best!

[Ekowraith]

Isn't that the community's complaint exactly, though?

That being forgiven on the basis of an apology completely contradicts the policy the staff implemented?

[Ashur]

Isn't that the community's complaint exactly, though?

That being forgiven on the basis of an apology completely contradicts the policy the staff implemented?

i cant see how apologising contradicts when one states that he is going to take the punishment that comes along with it.

[Kayliaah]

Wb Ash, GET TO WORK ALREADY!

[Lobreeze]

I think the community just complains to complain. I don't think Ashur has deserved the BS thats been going on. This is still Alpha, and he's been around longer than most of us.

Did him speedhacking affect me in any way shape or form?

No. It most certainly did not.

He's apologized. Drop it. This isn't live and I believe he's sorry.

[nitsuj777]

Wasn't it posted in the Dev Chat that your toon was already deleted, then given back under a new name? Sorry I'm not up with all the facts, but it that is the case then those screenshots mean nothing at all.

[Lobreeze]

Wasn't it posted in the Dev Chat that your toon was already deleted, then given back under a new name? Sorry I'm not up with all the facts, but it that is the case then those screenshots mean nothing at all.

Maybe, just maybe, you should get all the facts first?

[Ekowraith]

I think the community just complains to complain. I don't think Ashur has deserved the BS thats been going on. This is still Alpha, and he's been around longer than most of us.

Did him speedhacking affect me in any way shape or form?

No. It most certainly did not.

He's apologized. Drop it. This isn't live and I believe he's sorry.

Ashur's sincerity - or even his actions - isn't the problem. It's the policy.

It completely undermines the staff's credibility to hand out personal pardons and makes the entire policy look disingenuous.

[sXeKJB]

So keeping stuff, things such as big as this 'private' is good? What you don't know can't hurt you attitude, eh?

Besides, it would have come out sooner or later that they're back under staff now, imagine the community response then...

No that's beside the point. I don't agree with them being allowed back in after being banned, according to others, more than 1 time (especially when 3 days ago a zero-tolerance policy was implemented). My question is why put them back in the same way they went out, same player, same guild, same opportunity to repeat that which was already not trustworthy. It just doesn't seem like a "team" to me at all, it seems like they are given everything back and just slapped a title that says "exploitation team"

[Lobreeze]

Ashur's sincerity - or even his actions - isn't the problem. It's the policy.

It completely undermines the staff's credibility to hand out personal pardons and makes the entire policy look disingenuous.

Lol, yeah its all a conspiracy. Sorry everyone has been oh so wronged.

And to all the people who are "threatening" to quit, well, it only shows how petty you are.

[Timbab]

I find it cute that most people give Ashur all the **** but forget about STORM (AXIS) who has been known for more than enough exploits in the past.

Typical mass sheep movement.

[Kayliaah]

Wasn't it posted in the Dev Chat that your toon was already deleted, then given back under a new name? Sorry I'm not up with all the facts, but it that is the case then those screenshots mean nothing at all.



So, is it all about his Jedi toon?
I don't think he was gonna use it anyway, not anymore.

Seriously people, there is far more important than a freaking TC Jedi.

[Oovdoo]

Just looking at this from a simple ground level, Surely there are better people within the community that have skills in the way of hacking that aren't complete and utter jerks. they did not hack the game to "test" or to speed up getting jedi... They hacked into the game to grief the hell out of the community to get there sick pleasure of annoying normal testers.

This isn't about developing the game... its about the communities support for the development of the game, And hiring people that TARGETED the community to grief to then work for SWGEmu? its madness... There are other emulator teams out there the community can move to one that doesn’t hire people who hate the community...


Keep it simple... Ban the people who hate the community... and the community will thank you for it.

[Yhor]

Ashur's sincerity - or even his actions - isn't the problem. It's the policy.

It completely undermines the staff's credibility to hand out personal pardons and makes the entire policy look disingenuous.

Yes. Exactly.

[duffmanrc]

I think the community just complains to complain. I don't think Ashur has deserved the BS thats been going on. This is still Alpha, and he's been around longer than most of us.

Did him speedhacking affect me in any way shape or form?

No. It most certainly did not.

He's apologized. Drop it. This isn't live and I believe he's sorry.

rubber banding didn't effect you in any way?

And Ashur, don't say you didn't grief anyone. I personally know that you griefed people doing their malichae quest, as we have you on fraps saying "No Malichae for you!" just after you solo'd him on someone else's quest spawn.

What a joke this is. Zero Tolerance LMFAO

[Lobreeze]

I find it cute that most people give Ashur all the **** but forget about STORM (AXIS) who has been known for more than enough exploits in the past.

Typical mass sheep movement.

QFT.

I bet most of the people don't even know what they are angry about.

Did Ashur specifically greif anyone? Or are they just pissed he got teh Jedai

[Ekowraith]

Lol, yeah its all a conspiracy. Sorry everyone has been oh so wronged.

Do you have any real objections to my argument? Because you didn't present any.

The point stands. Ashur's pardon marks a glaring inconsistency in staff treatment.

[Ashur]

QFT.

I bet most of the people don't even know what they are angry about.

Did Ashur specifically greif anyone? Or are they just pissed he got teh Jedai

i didnt grief anyone, one guy reported me for griefing, but i have screenshots to back up that he was the one that started being a **** and i got pissed at him and started saying things that werent that nice back :)

[Lobreeze]

Do you have any real objections to my argument? Because you didn't present any.

The point stands. Ashur's pardon marks a glaring inconsistency in staff treatment.

Nope you're totally right. Mass exodus people, lets not get cheated twice! I for one will not support a forgiving staff.

/sigh........

[Ekowraith]

The point here is consistency and credibility. When you implement a policy but opt not to enforce it upon exceptional individuals, the rest of us get mad.

[Wolverine79]

I think there has been some miss-communication. We are definitely listening to the community and that is why we were very serious about the zero-tolerancy towards the exploiters. After we made the decision, we have realized that this will hinder the project while we are in development. That being said we lighten the policy up so we give a second chance for them so they can help fill in these holes. However this does not mean they can cheat, grief or exploit anymore! These things will go privately and not on the public test center. In case they are caught again, we say goodbye to them for good.

I hope this will help understand why we have come to this decision. Besides our will to step up against hackers, this will benefit everyone in the long run.

2nd chance. Are you stupid. He was given a 2nd chance. He has been caught twice and prolly countless of other times but over looked. We were told to bring proof because hes a buddy of you guys and let to do whatever he wants.

Its bs and you guys know it. Worse than SoE every thought of being. All you guys do is lie to the community and let friends do whatever they like.

Unbanned the rest of of the hackers and exploiters that got caught. Be fair about it now. Not just let your buddies back in. Remember now it helps you guys for these people to be helping while doing this.

So far every time something like this has come up you guys come out and cover it up for your buddies but if it was me or someone else not a part of your little inner circle we would be prema banned for all of it when caught. This guy and his crew is allowed back is saying alot and I think the leaks of you guys being corrupted is true and that you already knew they were.

So lie more. The only one we can trust and has tried to be fair is Max and the good staff working on this project. I feel bad for you guys. Because the rest of you are so corrupted. This how it would be on live to. You would look a blind eye to your friends. Even give them info.

As far as I and other are concerned you guys are worse than SoE and I do hope some of what has been leak makes it to light and shows the deeper rooted corruption in this project.

[Lobreeze]

The point here is consistency and credibility. When you implement a policy but opt not to enforce it upon exceptional individuals, the rest of us get mad.

The point here is people are all scrambling for their 30 seconds on the moral soapbox. It's getting old.

Don't let the door hit ya on the way out!

:deadhorse:

[Ashur]

rubber banding didn't effect you in any way?

And Ashur, don't say you didn't grief anyone. I personally know that you griefed people doing their malichae quest, as we have you on fraps saying "No Malichae for you!" just after you solo'd him on someone else's quest spawn.

What a joke this is. Zero Tolerance LMFAO

1. rubberbanding was allways a part of swgemu TC, they removed it for a while then reinstated it.

2. dont lie, i said "no mellicheae for you" after one of your guys said "run *****" i didnt just up and say it like what you are stating in your post.

3. ive allready talked to the guy that had the mission and apologised to him for it.

[Mahonra]

Much respect on doing that Ashor. Can you also assure the community that a new Jedi was created for you now by a Dev? Since it's well known a dev helped you change your name after the first controversy. I think the community would feel better knowing you didn't just have a brand new Jedi handed to you after doing this.

[Ekowraith]

The point here is people are all scrambling for their 30 seconds on the moral soapbox. It's getting old.

Don't let the door hit ya on the way out!



Hahaha, I'm not leaving SWGEmu based on this incident. That would be ridiculous.

Anyway - it's obviously unfair to dismiss all criticism of staff policy as 'soapboxing'. It's an ad hominem argument - even if the intent is questionable, why can't you refute the argument on merit alone?

While I agree that quitting is absurd, what is controversial about asking for equal treatment when it comes to the enforcement of staff policy? Personal pardons are an obvious injustice.

If the staff want their decisions to resonate with the community, they had damn well better enforce them fairly.

[duffmanrc]

1. rubberbanding was allways a part of swgemu TC, they removed it for a while then reinstated it.

2. dont lie, i said "no mellicheae for you" after one of your guys said "run *****" i didnt just up and say it like what you are stating in your post.

3. ive allready talked to the guy that had the mission and apologised to him for it.

are you dense?
1)rubberbanding is not always part of swgemu, its from trying to stop speed hacking. It was recently implemented.
2)its not the quote that was important. The fact is, that you are out there griefing people slaying "mellicheae" just to delay their jedi quest.
3) Right, if I shoot some one in the face and say sorry, all is well in Ashur world.

[Miller0000]

Maybe, just maybe, you should get all the facts first?

This is what he was referring to, I along with many others were there and read the live chat as it unfolded. He had his facts straight.

If you were there you know who the **** is .......



[5:22pm]Q-Bostwain:Considering **** was one of the known speedhackers, why was he "banned" temporarily but in fact jsut had his character name changed or given a whole new jedi? If I get warned for something can I have my name changed? I just dont understand why someone can be caught speed hacking while ghosted by a staff member and recieve no punishment...
[5:23pm]Max:i can't discuss individual players or associations
[5:23pm]Q-Bostwain:Okay
[5:23pm]Max:it would be unethical
[5:23pm]Q-Bostwain:Hold on one second.
[5:23pm]Max:would you like to rephrase the question?
[5:23pm]Q-Bostwain:yes
[5:23pm]Max:please be swift
[5:23pm]Q-Bostwain:Considering ***** was one of the known speedhackers, why was he "banned" temporarily but in fact jsut had his character name changed or given a whole new jedi? If I get warned for something can I have my name changed? I just dont understand why someone can be caught speed hacking while ghosted by a staff member and recieve no punishment...
[5:23pm]Max:i can't discuss individual players or associations

[mijom]

Can't you all just calm down for bit?
Let it settle for day or 2 and see how things turn out and start to roll.

[Ashur]

Much respect on doing that Ashor.

only reason i did that was because so many people thought i used the speedhack to get jedi, which i didnt, everything with jedi was legit, and since i was the first one i got alot of benefits, looted holo easy, the grind was easy since jedi xp was much higher, had easy rumors all the way, and the most important thing....

i was one of the first that figured out rumors, like a week before it was mentioned on the jedi progression thread. I had done i think 10 rumors by the time it became public that rumors was the way to go.

and who on earth runs around looking for their rumor mobs? i just used the luas hehe :)

[MarlonB]

Its more how advanced it goes, working out points and all that is honestly very easy and simple to do, there are a lot of other "hacks" which do not require memory editing and some memory editing are not stored as something as easy to lock onto (Experimentation points you just search the number add another search for new number however not everything works like that)

Oi ... i got your point ...

However ... in the end most pieces of functionality boil down to numbers in memory and a cmp/jmp we are after :) ... the hard and creative part is understanding the game and coming up with methods to drill down to these needles in the memory haystack.


In the past i've done more challenging stuff then experimentation points ;) ... think changing models in memory ... bypassing crc checks or editing packets in memory ( not sniffing/editing packets but change them directly in game memory). None of these in EMU though ... searching for the easy stuff first .... plus I know lot's can't be hacked as i have access to the server code :) ( gotto love open source).


There are indeed several other hacks that do not require memory changes, but those just ain't in my area of interest ... in the end i only do this because it interests me.


I'll wait untill this storm passes and then see how policies are before loading Olly again :D

[Uli]

are you dense?
1)rubberbanding is not always part of swgemu, its from trying to stop speed hacking. It was recently implemented.


Rubberbanding is the speed hack protection over sensitiveness.
This use to be active loads in the past and never turned off and was only turned off during certain times such as stress tests.
It was on at the start but people complained about the rubberbanding blaming it on the connection and later it was turned off.
Speed hackers know that the rubberbanding was the protection and when they turned it off of course they tried and eventually when they get spotted and posted about everyone starts to complain to a certain extent but when the full protection is turned on even more people complain resulting to this.

[Ashur]

are you dense?
1)rubberbanding is not always part of swgemu, its from trying to stop speed hacking. It was recently implemented.
2)its not the quote that was important. The fact is, that you are out there griefing people slaying "mellicheae" just to delay their jedi quest.
3) Right, if I shoot some one in the face and say sorry, all is well in Ashur world.

sorry but im gonna call you an idiot right here, you mean that the speedhack detection was never used in swgemu before now? LMAO

atm you are a tool, if you think i go around and grief people, i have never griefed anyone, and if you dont believe me, so be it, i couldnt care less

i didnt do it to delay their quest, are you really that stupid to think i would travel 6km just to **** someone over?

[kelharis]

Which is more harmful to the Emu community?

1. Banning known exploiters/hackers/griefers who "might" be able to help find other exploits/hacks.

2. A small group of Devs unbanning known exploiters/hackers/griefers after the entire Dev team voted to ban them, undermining the Dev team as a whole. Causing several members of the Dev team to either quit the project, or consider quitting the project.

It feels to me like the Dev team took the time to debate and decide upon a solution that would benefit the Emu community as a whole, but then a small group of the team made a snap decision to reverse this solution without discussing it with the rest of the Dev team.

[Ashur]

Which is more harmful to the Emu community?

1. Banning known exploiters/hackers/griefers who "might" be able to help find other exploits/hacks.

2. A small group of Devs unbanning known exploiters/hackers/griefers after the entire Dev team voted to ban them, undermining the Dev team as a whole. Causing several members of the Dev team to either quit the project, or consider quitting the project.

It feels to me like the Dev team took the time to debate and decide upon a solution that would benefit the Emu community as a whole, but then a small group of the team made a snap decision to reverse this solution without discussing it with the rest of the Dev team.

funny how some people have completly misunderstood what happened ;)

[Kayliaah]

Rubberbanding is the speed hack protection over sensitiveness.
This use to be active loads in the past and never turned off and was only turned off during certain times such as stress tests.
It was on at the start but people complained about the rubberbanding blaming it on the connection and later it was turned off.
Speed hackers know that the rubberbanding was the protection and when they turned it off of course they tried and eventually when they get spotted and posted about everyone starts to complain to a certain extent but when the full protection is turned on even more people complain resulting to this.


Wow I learn new things everyday.
I always thought the first rubberbanding was a crap in the code, so much for telling us, speedhackers would have known sooner or later anyway.

Thanks.

[DraGa]

i didnt grief anyone, one guy reported me for griefing, but i have screenshots to back up that he was the one that started being a **** and i got pissed at him and started saying things that werent that nice back :)

BULL**** Ashur, you sat there and griefed MULTIPLE people trying to unlock jedi by killing Malikae(or however you spell his name). You not only admitted it, but said "no jedi for you TOO"! The staff even had to deal with you over the issue.

Shut your god damn lieing ass up. >_<

[Fullifecti]

Epic thread, needs a calming influence.
/soothes everyone
It'll come out in the wash, hopefully. Devs leaving over it is a worry tho, could impede/slow progress.

[DraGa]

Which is more harmful to the Emu community?

1. Banning known exploiters/hackers/griefers who "might" be able to help find other exploits/hacks.

2. A small group of Devs unbanning known exploiters/hackers/griefers after the entire Dev team voted to ban them, undermining the Dev team as a whole. Causing several members of the Dev team to either quit the project, or consider quitting the project.

It feels to me like the Dev team took the time to debate and decide upon a solution that would benefit the Emu community as a whole, but then a small group of the team made a snap decision to reverse this solution without discussing it with the rest of the Dev team.

funny how some people have completly misunderstood what happened ;)

No this is EXACTLY what happend, as we have numerous staff distributing the information on a daily basis to those of us in the know.

Yet again, Ashur trying to lie his ass off to protect himself and his hacking/exploiting self & guild mates.

[Tigerfang]

Much respect on doing that Ashor. Can you also assure the community that a new Jedi was created for you now by a Dev? Since it's well known a dev helped you change your name after the first controversy. I think the community would feel better knowing you didn't just have a brand new Jedi handed to you after doing this.

respect for the delete IF it was not recreated.

[duffmanrc]

sorry but im gonna call you an idiot right here, you mean that the speedhack detection was never used in swgemu before now? LMAO

atm you are a tool, if you think i go around and grief people, i have never griefed anyone, and if you dont believe me, so be it, i couldnt care less

i didnt do it to delay their quest, are you really that stupid to think i would travel 6km just to **** someone over?

don't say you don't grief people, i just gave you an instance to where you did.

Speed hacks make that 6km run much faster doesnt it?

[Mahonra]

sorry but im gonna call you an idiot right here, you mean that the speedhack detection was never used in swgemu before now? LMAO

atm you are a tool, if you think i go around and grief people, i have never griefed anyone, and if you dont believe me, so be it, i couldnt care less

i didnt do it to delay their quest, are you really that stupid to think i would travel 6km just to **** someone over?

Then why did you shout in spatial "I killed Mellachie for you guys! Hahaha" right after ruining Wrikes Padawan quest? I told you in the Cnet cantina that a group was on the way to complete the trial. 10 mins later you were there killing Mellachie.

Look, you gained respect by deleting your Jedi (assuming you aren't given a new one), so don't ruin that by continuing to claim you didn't intentionally ruin Wrikes quest.

[DraGa]

respect for the delete IF it was not recreated.

They "deleted" his toon once before, what's to stop them from undeleting it again? He's getting help from some staff members with power. This is already known to us :emperor:.

[Kayliaah]

Devs leaving over it is a worry tho, could impede/slow progress.

It happened, it's happening and it won't stop, honestly it was my first fear when I first heard about the "changes", looks like I wasn't wrong.

[Ashur]

BULL**** Ashur, you sat there and griefed MULTIPLE people trying to unlock jedi by killing Malikae(or however you spell his name). You not only admitted it, but said "no jedi for you TOO"! The staff even had to deal with you over the issue.

Shut your god damn lieing ass up. >_<

why did the youtube video get deleted by the guy that uploaded it then?? it showed me meditating and 10 ppl shouting "get him get him" & oh this is gonna be so fun" and loads of other oh not so nice things, then you all ran up, i popped a drink and forcearmor2 and ran away. one guy even said look he is speedhacking lol (even tho its impossible to speedhack when the detection software is running)

and i didnt say anything until one guy yelled run *****. funny thing is, all this and no proofe to back it up.



don't say you don't grief people, i just gave you an instance to where you did.

Speed hacks make that 6km run much faster doesnt it?

wo you really are en ignorant tool you know that? its impossible to speedhack when the speedhack software is running.

Then why did you shout in spatial "I killed Mellachie for you guys! Hahaha" right after ruining Wrikes Padawan quest? I told you in the Cnet cantina that a group was on the way to complete the trial. 10 mins later you were there killing Mellachie.

Look, you gained respect by deleting your Jedi (assuming you aren't given a new one), so don't ruin that by continuing to claim you didn't intentionally ruin Wrikes quest.


why on earth would i do that? at the time i was friends with most of you guys.

have i ever done anything before that, that hinted towards me being a douche like that?

again after someone shouted run *****, i got mad.

[Ashur]

funny how people get things wrong wow, i am speechless,

my toon didnt get deleted, i only got a name change

thats it, nothing more to say about that.

[DraGa]

why did the youtube video get deleted by the guy that uploaded it then?? it showed me meditating and 10 ppl shouting "get him get him" & oh this is gonna be so fun" and loads of other oh not so nice things, then you all ran up, i popped a drink and forcearmor2 and ran away. one guy even said look he is speedhacking lol (even tho its impossible to speedhack when the detection software is running)

and i didnt say anything until one guy yelled run *****. funny thing is, all this and no proofe to back it up.





wo you really are en ignorant tool you know that? its impossible to speedhack when the speedhack software is running.




why on earth would i do that? at the time i was friends with most of you guys.

have i ever done anything before that, that hinted towards me being a douche like that?

again after someone shouted run *****, i got mad.

So essentially Ashur, I can begin a hacking the SWGemu project, creating hacks for SWGemu LEGALLY as long as I submit them to the "hacker team"?

e.g: I create a teleportation hack, and i'll never be banned? :emperor:

Considering Sosko came into the SWGemu ventrilo, admitted that all you did was downloaded and ran the hack, and then claimed we'd be griefed more after they were all banned. Not only that but Sosko has been DOS attacking our ventrilo for the past couple days since he was banned? I was wondering why he stopped, he was unbanned >_>!

[Valkyra]

have i ever done anything before that, that hinted towards me being a douche like that?


Does you reading the staff forums you shouldn't have had access to when jedi was first implemented by me as a surprise for players, then getting one and going around in Theed like the moron you are to ruin my hard work just because you were scared that we would hand out holos for event rewards ring a bell?

It should.

[Ashur]

So essentially Ashur, I can begin a hacking the SWGemu project, creating hacks for SWGemu LEGALLY as long as I submit them to the "hacker team"?

e.g: I create a teleportation hack, and i'll never be banned? :emperor:

Considering Sosko came into the SWGemu ventrilo, admitted that all you did was downloaded and ran the hack, and then claimed we'd be griefed more after they were all banned. Not only that but Sosko has been DOS attacking our ventrilo for the past couple days since he was banned? I was wondering why he stopped, he was unbanned >_>!

sosko isnt unbanned. sosko is permabanned.

get your facts straight perhaps?

[DraGa]

sosko isnt unbanned. sosko is permabanned.

get your facts straight perhaps?

Even though we are told he's in the process of being UNBANNED, because he's friends with several staff member like you? :rolleyes:

Does you reading the staff forums you shouldn't have had access to when jedi was first implemented by me as a surprise for players, then getting one and going around in Theed like the moron you are to ruin my hard work just because you were scared that we would hand out holos for event rewards ring a bell?

It should.

BAM! Eat horse poodoo and die Ashur :).

[Ashur]

Does you reading the staff forums you shouldn't have had access to when jedi was first implemented by me as a surprise for players, then getting one and going around in Theed like the moron you are to ruin my hard work just because you were scared that we would hand out holos for event rewards ring a bell?

It should.

oh you are talking about the jedi thing you went and told everyone on stk and didnt want anyone else to know about so that STK would have jedi but no one else would?

btw nice work putting a jedi trainer at the jedi ruins, was real hard to find.

[Mahonra]

This controversy is just awful any way you slice it. It's split the EMU community right down the middle. Personally I think the integrity of the game is more important than any single player or guild.

[Uli]

So essentially Ashur, I can begin a hacking the SWGemu project, creating hacks for SWGemu LEGALLY as long as I submit them to the "hacker team"?

e.g: I create a teleportation hack, and i'll never be banned? :emperor:


Probably by the sounds of it as long as you do not use it

Not only that but Sosko has been DOS attacking our ventrilo for the past couple days since he was banned? I was wondering why he stopped, he was unbanned >_>!

Sosko would not know how to DoS attack anything.
He can however download a slightly modified executable of Ventrilo which causes people to crash which is not a DoS attack at all.

[Rippster]

sorry but im gonna call you an idiot right here, you mean that the speedhack detection was never used in swgemu before now? LMAO

atm you are a tool, if you think i go around and grief people, i have never griefed anyone, and if you dont believe me, so be it, i couldnt care less

i didnt do it to delay their quest, are you really that stupid to think i would travel 6km just to **** someone over?

Is this the kind of attitude we have to look forward to with the new "team"?

Something doesn't smell right with this whole thing. I think some additional consideration is needed as to the future of this project and where it's headed.

I'm not real keen on the idea of promoting the inmates to guards and giving their shanks back after causing a riot in the cafeteria.

[Ashur]

Even though we are told he's in the process of being UNBANNED, because he's friends with several staff member like you? :rolleyes:



BAM! Eat horse poodoo and die Ashur :).

you get "told" alot dont you?

[Wolverine79]

I can't speak on behalf of the whole team but when this idea came to my table, i said go with zero-tolerance without any hesitation. Then some of the developers raised their voices, how are we going to find these exploits if we restrict and punish these hackers. On the other hand we must eliminate the system being used for their advantage and provide a good testing environment for all the other players.

So we have adjusted the policy. Was it a rushed decision? Probably. Is there a chance we adjust it even further. Of course! I'am trying to be as open-minded as possible and you should rather come to me directly instead of going to public with complaints like this. The problems raised by many of you here is noted and being considered. It has a valid point, that we should use someone else for the job then the given individuals.

Why a good dev showed proof of your corruption. How about hackers leaking info on you guys because they wanna show off.

Val and Max and others that are here working with the project and the community we stand behind you. Its the corrupted one looking out for friends and don't care about the community that is really sad. These hackers have no respect for you guys or the community. I mean they call you guys the scrubs of the team. I mean thats bold.

In knowing they over turned Ashur and crew is just more proof of how corrupt they are without voting or talking it over with the full team/staff.

I am deeply disappointed in the lies and cover up. I agree also having a team to find and fix the exploits and ways of hacking is great but having these people that were caught using them and greifing and now bring back from banning and given special titles from the corrupted part of the staff is just amazing.

[MarlonB]

Like in major companies ... heads need to roll after screwups to keep the masses happy.
The best man for the job isn't always the best man for the team.

I do not know Ashur nor the history, so it's nothing personal, but it's obvious what needs to happen here.



Think damage control .... take a discission and nip this in the butt.

[Lazerbrick]

If i rob a bank, then return the money, do i get the same amount of respect that ashur is getting for deleting his jedi? oh and btw, why were you out at the village in the first place Ashur if it wasn't to grief?

[Ashur]

Is this the kind of attitude we have to look forward to with the new "team"?

Something doesn't smell right with this whole thing. I think some additional consideration is needed as to the future of this project and where it's headed.

I'm not real keen on the idea of promoting the inmates to guards and giving their shanks back after causing a riot in the cafeteria.

sorry for all of this rippster, you are right that i shouldnt engange in this, but im not gonna be on the team, im probably gonna get perma banned, and have my acct deleted.

but as you can see im getting attacked from several people, kinda hard to neglect this.

[Valkyra]

sorry for all of this rippster, you are right that i shouldnt engange in this, but im not gonna be on the team, im probably gonna get perma banned, and have my acct deleted.

but as you can see im getting attacked from several people, kinda hard to neglect this.

You seem to be neglecting my post enough.

[Miller0000]

why did the youtube video get deleted by the guy that uploaded it then?? it showed me meditating and 10 ppl shouting "get him get him" & oh this is gonna be so fun" and loads of other oh not so nice things, then you all ran up, i popped a drink and forcearmor2 and ran away. one guy even said look he is speedhacking lol (even tho its impossible to speedhack when the detection software is running)

and i didnt say anything until one guy yelled run *****. funny thing is, all this and no proofe to back it up.





wo you really are en ignorant tool you know that? its impossible to speedhack when the speedhack software is running.




why on earth would i do that? at the time i was friends with most of you guys.

have i ever done anything before that, that hinted towards me being a douche like that?

again after someone shouted run *****, i got mad.

You were just added to the Exploitation Team for the EMU correct? So I guess that would include the way you speak to the community and/or present yourself as being part the the SWGemu Team should be a little more appropriate. With that being said, perhaps you should ease up on the way you are speaking to others on here, you are making yourself and the team look pretty bad. All community's venting and opinions is to be expected, so roll with the punches for now and respond a little later.

[DraGa]

This controversy is just awful any way you slice it. It's split the EMU community right down the middle. Personally I think the integrity of the game is more important than any single player or guild.

Controversy?

-We have proof of Ashur speedhacking
-We have numerous staff members quitting over this BS(they know more than us behind the scenes)
-$o$Ko was recorded admitting Ashur & most of his people in STORM speedhacked & exploited, and that MAX was nothing more than a "low ranking CSR with a loud mouth". <===Also Recorded
-We have NUMEROUS staff telling us that Ashur was caught (by staff members) and banned TWICE.

HOW is this a controversy? A controversy is a state of prolonged public dispute or debate usually concerning a matter of opinion. This is NOT public opinion that's going on here, this is FACT that the community, and several staff members, are being blind sided with favoritism with hackers.

Essentially all we have to do is be good at creating hacks for SWGemu and we can get a staff position with mediocre power. :emperor:

[Miller0000]

You seem to be neglecting my post enough.

....../agree

[Ashur]

You were just added to the Exploitation Team for the EMU correct. So I guess that would include the way you speak to the community and/or present yourself as being part the the SWGemu Team should be a little more appropriate. With that being said, perhaps you should ease up on the way you are speaking to others on here, you are making yourself and the team look pretty bad. All community's venting and opinions is to be expected, so roll with the punches for now and respond a little later.

as i said, im not gonna be ON the team. when i saw that people didnt like the idea i knew right then that i wasnt the right man for the job.

[Wolverine79]

He might be but he is caught on cheating again, the ban will come for good this time.

Nice again. Hes been caught many times. How many chances does one get. If this was me or someone else not friends with the corrupted staff we would never gotten so many chances.

Let the others that were banned back. Its only fair.

[Ashur]

You seem to be neglecting my post enough.

you mean this?

http://www.swgemu.com/forums/showpost.php?p=440814&postcount=209

[Yhor]

only reason i did that was because so many people thought i used the speedhack to get jedi, which i didnt, everything with jedi was legit, and since i was the first one i got alot of benefits, looted holo easy, the grind was easy since jedi xp was much higher, had easy rumors all the way, and the most important thing....

i was one of the first that figured out rumors, like a week before it was mentioned on the jedi progression thread. I had done i think 10 rumors by the time it became public that rumors was the way to go.

and who on earth runs around looking for their rumor mobs? i just used the luas hehe :)
Did you edit the .lua or just read it? Assuming you're talking about Lua script, it's an exploit used to get Jedi faster either way.

sorry but im gonna call you an idiot right here, you mean that the speedhack detection was never used in swgemu before now? LMAO

atm you are a tool, if you think i go around and grief people, i have never griefed anyone, and if you dont believe me, so be it, i couldnt care less

i didnt do it to delay their quest, are you really that stupid to think i would travel 6km just to **** someone over?
Vfunny how some people have completly misunderstood what happened ;)
Then explain the following, is it not true?
Then why did you shout in spatial "I killed Mellachie for you guys! Hahaha" right after ruining Wrikes Padawan quest? I told you in the Cnet cantina that a group was on the way to complete the trial. 10 mins later you were there killing Mellachie.

Look, you gained respect by deleting your Jedi (assuming you aren't given a new one), so don't ruin that by continuing to claim you didn't intentionally ruin Wrikes quest.

funny how people get things wrong wow, i am speechless,

my toon didnt get deleted, i only got a name change

thats it, nothing more to say about that.
^ This is the reason for a lot of the outrage, you were given special treatment, a name change. Who else gets a name change? If you did nothing wrong, as you say, then why apologize at all... why was a name change needed, and finally, why come in this thread and give more reason for those already pissed by your actions to protest more?

You have the potential to be a decent guy, I've seen it. You really need to work on anger issues though, and stop being so damned defensive when you know you're wrong.

My issue wasn't with you, it was with the decision to give special treatment, you just happened to be the recipient. Don't get that confused.

[Uli]

Did you edit the .lua or just read it? Assuming you're talking about Lua script, it's an exploit used to get Jedi faster either way.


Everyone hunting to get jedi would have to be banned from this statement.

A lot of people check LUA's for the spawn locations & timers.

[Valkyra]

Probably by the sounds of it as long as you do not use it



Sosko would not know how to DoS attack anything.
He can however download a slightly modified executable of Ventrilo which causes people to crash which is not a DoS attack at all.

It may not be a DoS, but it's still highly disruptive harassment in the form of force closing ventrilo clients.

Not to mention how he joined IRC about 10 times through proxies spamming links to a questionable download that could very well be a malicious backdoor trojan, and then shouting highly offensive obscenities.

[Ashur]

reading the luas IS NOT an exploit, LMAO!

[Lazerbrick]

as i said, im not gonna be ON the team. when i saw that people didnt like the idea i knew right then that i wasnt the right man for the job.

well if your not gonna be on the team, then i guess they can re-ban then since that was the reason of un-ban.

[DraGa]

Did you edit the .lua or just read it? Assuming you're talking about Lua script, it's an exploit used to get Jedi faster either way.


V
Then explain the following, is it not true?



^ This is the reason for a lot of the outrage, you were given special treatment, a name change. Who else gets a name change? If you did nothing wrong, as you say, then why apologize at all... why was a name change needed, and finally, why come in this thread and give more reason for those already pissed by your actions to protest more?

You have the potential to be a decent guy, I've seen it. You really need to work on anger issues though, and stop being so damned defensive when you know you're wrong.

My issue wasn't with you, it was with the decision to give special treatment, you just happened to be the recipient. Don't get that confused.

+3 Internets for you sir.

[Valkyra]

oh you are talking about the jedi thing you went and told everyone on stk and didnt want anyone else to know about so that STK would have jedi but no one else would?

btw nice work putting a jedi trainer at the jedi ruins, was real hard to find.

A. I wasn't even online when an StK member unlocked, or even at the computer. I was at an appointment, I told this to kyle.

B. I wasn't responsible for the locations where the jedi trainers were. Dame was, and I did that ON PURPOSE so I wouldn't know where they were.

Nice try, but get your facts straight next time.

[Wolverine79]

lots of people seem to keep missing the whole IT'S A TEST SERVER thing.

yeah its nice to play again, totally agree, loving it myself.

so it doesn't really matter to me if people get caught hacking.

its the ones who don't get caught that bother me.

and if a guy does get caught, tells us what he did and helps us fix it, then thats good for us all on that hallowed day that a full server goes live.

right?

why the fuss people?

If they doing it here they will be doing it on live. These people have been caught and allowed to cont. to do so now. They are friends with devs and gives them a get out ban free card. Enough said!

[MarlonB]

Everyone hunting to get jedi would have to be banned from this statement.

A lot of people check LUA's for the spawn locations & timers.

Pfft ... reading Lua's is old ... @spawn is much faster ;)

[Uli]

It may not be a DoS, but it's still highly disruptive harassment in the form of force closing ventrilo clients.

Not to mention how he joined IRC about 10 times through proxies spamming links to a questionable download that could very well be a malicious backdoor trojan, and then shouting highly offensive obscenities.

i cant argue against those statements

[STiBS84]

Forgive me, I'm new 'round these here sanddunes, but... are you folks seriously saying that you're upset about hacking and exploitation on a TEST server? In the real world of beta-testing, that just doesn't make sense.

Why on Earth would you be punishing people for exploiting, hacking, and otherwise helping to identify problems with the software on a TEST server? If this was a LIVE server, fine, but from what I've seen around this community, a lot of people need to get their heads out of their butts and understand that "TEST SERVER" means exactly what it says. If it was up to me, I'd do a mass-reset of the character DB once a month just to remind people that this isn't a live server, and they're no business expecting anything other than bug fixes and gameplay improvements.

Crap like this can only serve to help slow down development and demoralize the entire team, I'm sure.

... and I bet I just made myself a whole bunch of enemies. Welp, back to my day job! :P

[MarlonB]

About time someone with some power here steps in .... again ... damage control is needed.

Delete thread ... post a new one without the mentioning of Ashur ... and keep it under control.

[jermat]

wolverine the main point is so that noone will do this on live

[Zecke]

at first plz stop calling em hackers they just cheater/scriptkids nothing more. if y need more infos about the definition of a hacker read ..

click me (http://www.phrack.org/issues.html?issue=7&id=3#article)

me too (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackers_Heroes_of_the_Computer_Revolution)

and me plz (http://www.fiu.edu/~mizrachs/hackethic.html)



Of course we do.

ok if y have 1 then let the sploiting kids test there so i dont have to deal with them again!

[Cilraaz]

wolverine the main point is so that noone will do this on live

But to ensure that nobody does it on live, you need an exploit team devoted to actually finding and fixing exploits. You don't need people who have been banned multiple times for using exploits for their own purposes.

[jermat]

they should never been banned in first place

[sXeKJB]

oh yeah, in before lock

[Timbab]

About time someone with some power here steps in .... again ... damage control is needed.

Delete thread ... post a new one without the mentioning of Ashur ... and keep it under control.

Lol, what's been said can not be unsaid.

Actions and statements that spread in this thread will stick with the community for a while, deleting this thread would be the WORST thing they could do.

Damage has been done, can't really stop that now.

[MarlonB]

Lol, what's been said can not be unsaid.

Actions and statements that spread in this thread will stick with the community for a while, deleting this thread would be the WORST thing they could do.

Damage has been done, can't really stop that now.

Meh .... 17 pages of flaming doesn't really help either.
No reason to continue this.

If you care about the EMU, you will agree.

[DraGa]

Meh .... 17 pages of flaming doesn't really help either.
No reason to continue this.

If you care about the EMU, you will agree.

FLAMING? Are you serious?! Then, you pull a Hitler and say that if we don't agree with your poorly thought out shenanigans that we are evil towards the project? Holy crap batman :eek:.

This is NOT flaming, this is the community up in arms over this bull****.

[Lazerbrick]

If you care about the EMU, you will agree.

Thanks for the moral Aesop.

[jermat]

lol yall are just out for blood on a test server on live hows it going to be? hunting people for good ol jailhouse beatdowns?

[Timbab]

Meh .... 17 pages of flaming doesn't really help either.
No reason to continue this.

If you care about the EMU, you will agree.

Well that's besides the point, it can turn into 50 or however many posts and it won't change the statements from multiple parties that were made.

Having this thread deleted could be looked at as a 'cover up', which is a tad to late, if that was wanted.

If anything, lock it, but then it would just leave a bunch of people 'quiet' while still being upset, leaving them to form their own views and fantasies on things that haven't been mentioned yet.

It's not like this is the first uprising, it's the third in fact. :p Just this time it's not by some 'raging' little group', it's by a majority of the community.

[learningdisease]

You guys are still arguing about this?

Look, Ashur said himself he WILL NOT be on the exploitation discovery team, which will be STAFF MONITORED, not a PART OF STAFF. They are essentially community members volunteering more of their time to one aspect they know about, which the Devs have requested help on.

Those of you upset about the "over-turning" of the new policy, please let me clarify the situation for you:

1. Exploitation and 3rd party "hacking" tools were becoming far too prevalent and was disrupting testing and playing. In response, the Zero-Tolerance policy was drafted and enacted swiftly.
2. Upon further deliberation with more STAFF members, the policy has been MODIFIED. It now allows for testing of exploits and 3rd Party vulnerabilities, as long as its reported, otherwise ZERO TOLERANCE for those activities.
3. STAFF is going to monitor and keep a close eye on anyone (and their friends) who has reported an exploit or 3rd party vulnerability, we aren't throwing this to the wolves.

Please understand that we are still in a testing phase, and that we need to develop stronger methods of exploit and 3rd party vulnerability protections, we are going to use every method at our disposal to do so.

If it REALLY wrankles you so much that there are people purposely finding exploits on our Test Center, please wait until SC comes out, and you wont have to worry about it, you'll be able to play with all of the protections and assurances against disruptive occurances that a commercial MMO provides.

To those of you upset that Ashur helped STAFF members out by explaining all of the issues his group of friends discovered, and that STAFF was appreciative for it (he could have simply told them off and spammed treacherous links, crash 3rd party gathering utilities, and act like an immature jerk), I'm sorry that you hold such low opinions of people and distrust the Team that has been working on this to such an extent.

PLEASE NOTE! THE SKY IS NOT FALLING, no matter how many people say it is. SWGEmu is resilient, its been proven over our 5+ year existence, we've had issues FAR more troubling than a few players abusing exploits.

I think a lot of you are blowing this out of proportion. Lets give this a few days, trust in the team that has put so much work into getting this game back. Enjoy yourselves, its not the end of the world, its a videogame.

[DraGa]

lol yall are just out for blood on a test server on live hows it going to be? hunting people for good ol jailhouse beatdowns?

Says the storm member who claims Ashur and all the exploiters/speedhackers/griefers should have never been banned in the first place. Your opinion has not merit in this thread, or for that matter this forum, any longer.

Hacking, condoning it (as Kyle is doing), and pulling OBVIOUS favoritism completely undermines the project in it's entirety REGARDLESS if it's test center or not. Get your head out of your ass and think intelligently next time. :emperor:

[Mahonra]

Ashor...

Have you (or are you) being given a new force sensitive character? I think the community needs to know. To my knowledge you haven't addressed this yet.