TC:NOVA Wipe Poll Results

[Mecho]

Anyone else notice that those screenshots that are supposedly evidence of a moderator "fixing" the polls actually show more votes being removed from no columns than yes columns? I don't have moderator access to the forums, so can't really see what options are available there, but the difference between the two screenshots is very minimal lol. We are talking about 2-3 votes being removed. Hardly evidence to call things a conspiracy.

As for us ignoring the community - The complete opposite is going on here. Yeah the majority said they would like a wipe, but the majority said they wanted a wipe with blue frogs.

There was a lot more behind the decision - it's not that the whining minority won out. We started thinking about the real effects the blue frogs would have, and realized offering them as a condition of the poll was a mistake.
- Players would have exploited the frogs to become Jedi faster, and it would have taken away some interdependence since everyone could become self sufficient.
- Changing the frogs to guard against these exploits meant changing the terms of condition.
- A third poll was discussed and decided against.
- We felt that if we just left TC the way it was, then it would be the best thing for both parties.

Instead we get crucified and compared to SOE. Come on people.

OR at the current rate is approximately 5 months out. But as always, Developers lives and available time can fluctuate at any given moment, changing the amount of time we have to contribute. Obviously this can drastically affect any ETA. So, yeah, if things stayed the way they had been rolling, I would say 5 months is realistic. I doubt the motivation will be there with all the lynching, but we will see.

P.S. Enjoy the new loot tables.

Just a big thank you from me and my friends for remaining positive. One day we will play pre-cu SWG again and trust me many many people will be very gratefull!

[tonkatuff]

Its really simple.

The blue frogs cause A LOT of issues and do more harm than good. The "final" poll should have had 3-4 options.

Option 1 - I am for a wipe

Option 2 - I am against a wipe

Option 3 - I do not care one way or the other


It should have been explained in further detail.

Option 1

A wipe would be all inclusive. The servers would be brought back up , no blue frogs, with a new but similar jedi unlock system. Loot tables will be fixed to be more like the original version (no lvl 3522 sentinels). Crafters will be useful again.

Option 2

Servers wont be wiped, but we will fix the loot tables, delete all credits and items.

Option 3

No need for explaination.

Sure the above could be worded by a professional, but thats the choices that should be given. No wipe of anything at all = players will slowly quit playing and their goes the testing and community built up. When the OR hits, the community will have little trust because people's word isnt kept.

Thats how I see it playing out if something isnt done, which quite frankly, dont think it will be. Thats the developers progavtive though. Everyone does need to remember that they owe us NOTHING.

[Vlada]

lol...

There you are. I was wondering when you are gonna show up.

[CrackPipe2011]

cRush could we get an official announcement post telling us about the new loot tables? I'm interested.

[tonkatuff]

cRush could we get an official announcement post telling us about the new loot tables? I'm interested.

Crack man, some people do work lol. These developers do have jobs for the most part lol.

[Jengu-fet]

cRush could we get an official announcement post telling us about the new loot tables? I'm interested.

And it would be good to get something official about the decay also.

[CrackPipe2011]

Or an update on LPE. I'm very curious

[Kainzo]

Anyone else notice that those screenshots that are supposedly evidence of a moderator "fixing" the polls actually show more votes being removed from no columns than yes columns? I don't have moderator access to the forums, so can't really see what options are available there, but the difference between the two screenshots is very minimal lol. We are talking about 2-3 votes being removed. Hardly evidence to call things a conspiracy.

As for us ignoring the community - The complete opposite is going on here. Yeah the majority said they would like a wipe, but the majority said they wanted a wipe with blue frogs.

There was a lot more behind the decision - it's not that the whining minority won out. We started thinking about the real effects the blue frogs would have, and realized offering them as a condition of the poll was a mistake.
- Players would have exploited the frogs to become Jedi faster, and it would have taken away some interdependence since everyone could become self sufficient.
- Changing the frogs to guard against these exploits meant changing the terms of condition.
- A third poll was discussed and decided against.
- We felt that if we just left TC the way it was, then it would be the best thing for both parties.

Instead we get crucified and compared to SOE. Come on people.

OR at the current rate is approximately 5 months out. But as always, Developers lives and available time can fluctuate at any given moment, changing the amount of time we have to contribute. Obviously this can drastically affect any ETA. So, yeah, if things stayed the way they had been rolling, I would say 5 months is realistic. I doubt the motivation will be there with all the lynching, but we will see.

P.S. Enjoy the new loot tables.

Thanks for the update, cRush. Don't let the haters get you down. It was a brave statement to release an estimate on the arrival of OR, one that I think you didn't have to do.

Anyone who honestly doesn't appreciate the hard work the developers and staff puts into this game, really shouldn't be here and should go find another free based MMO and stop bothering the people who actually enjoy JUST playing the game.

[MiniMe]

I still think you are well within your bounds and rights as developers to do what needs to be done for a better end-result. Whatever that is, I support you.

PS any reason i'm getting a,

"Bad Password: Either you have mistyped your password or this account is already in use." message? My husband gets it also on his computer when he tried to log on just now.

[cru jodo]

P.S. Enjoy the new loot tables.

cRush, i love you man, but loot is out, Duping is the new loot table.

[tonkatuff]

I still think you are well within your bounds and rights as developers to do what needs to be done for a better end-result. Whatever that is, I support you.

PS any reason i'm getting a,

"Bad Password: Either you have mistyped your password or this account is already in use." message? My husband gets it also on his computer when he tried to log on just now.

There is a post in the Nova Discussion Forums. There was a deadlock and now the login servers are down. This is why you are getting the "bad password" error.

[dbinky]

What's funny to me is that the people who got the most angry about the possibility of a wipe are the ones who try to "win" SWG - an open-ended un-winable sandbox.

Well, perhaps they'll be satisfied with the fact that they won the wipe war. I doubt this will sate them, but I can dream... :)

[butjer100]

What surprises me is , I see some people selling holocrons by the 100s .. , and people willing to buy from him, now, that just makes me think, how the heck did that person get 100 holocrons or more to start with .., tru regular play ?? most likely NOT, so, i wouldnt even want to support him by buying a holocron from him, instead, i just want to report something like that, now if more people would be like that instead of being flies around the guy so they can get a holocron, then maybe we could gett rid of some dupers by identifying em .. but as long the people WILLING to close their eyes and buy the stuff they wanted altho they can almost guess it was duped, well .. then the community is just allowing it emselves, i never ever seen the question asked to tht guy how he did get the 100 + holcrons .. no1 asks, they just gladly buy em, so .. cant blame others later then for screwing up the economy if lots people had a hand in it and supported it at the time since they gained from it ...
I am sure some people wouldnt buy from these guys tho, I am 1 of em.. but most people seem not to care, however, they are the ones atm whining most prolly .. very typical... can't u guys just accept what the DEVS decide ? i dont care if they wipe or not tho really, i just accept their decision, and not gonna question it .., then i am only bothering the Devs .., in fact, if i was a dev and did see so much silly posts as i have seen last few days, would have been the very last time i ask the community their opinion on a major decision lol ..
maybe the majority did vote yes, maybe only got there since lots cheated with accounts, i dont know, but the devs decided, so just accept that !

In the old days in Everquest 11 year ago or so .. People wouldnt get away with so much spamming ingame etc to make their point clear, GMs were 100 times quicker on the ban button back then, i supose some people and doomsayers and stuff here can be glad i am not a GM, since, i liked these old strict rules ..

Once again.. just accept the decision, doing difficult bout it only gonna work against you, and isnt helping the devs in any way at all

They just can turn oif TC if they wish too, and work on OR without being disturbed all the time by all these ridiculous posts, but no, they decided they let us play, just accept that, and be happy u CAN play atm ... sigh

and maybe if u see a guy with 500 holocrons, u can guess its a bit fishy maybe and decide not to buy stuff from him .. then maybe u ll help the economy ..

aah well, i just had to get that of my chest, i feel sorry for the devs atm .. poor guys try their asses of to please us, and lots people not really showing apreeciation atm i would say ...

[Gray Mouser]

What's funny to me is that the people who got the most angry about the possibility of a wipe are the ones who try to "win" SWG - an open-ended un-winable sandbox.

Well, perhaps they'll be satisfied with the fact that they won the wipe war. I doubt this will sate them, but I can dream... :)

I'm sorry but if you think an mmorpg can't be won, then you just don't know your mmo history and the story of Fansy the Famous.

http://www.notaddicted.com/fansythefamous.php

[tonkatuff]

I really think have the nerd raging here is by kids that didnt even play pre-cu swg. Maybe when they were 9-10 years old. Everyone I see is 14-16 years old in game. You can tell by the way they type and carry on. They are here simply playing a free game.

This is going to hurt the people that loved swg pre-cu in the long run. All these people crying and bashing could potentially make the developers say "**** you, go play the nge". Its unlikely, but I know it can make them not want to work on it at all or lose motivation.

If all you whiners want to have to pay $15 for a sub par, ruined game and a **** community (well from the bashing it seems the **** community has arrived here as well), then keep bashing.

[Jason2444]

the devs are doing whats best for the emu? OOOHHHH MYYYYY GOOOOOD ITS NGE ALL OVER AGAIN

[Kainzo]

the devs are doing whats best for the emu? OOOHHHH MYYYYY GOOOOOD ITS NGE ALL OVER AGAIN

If this wasn't sarcasm, get a grip, check your still in the box Star Wars action figures - and then go outside and pray to god you don't get herpes.

[Jamale Voreidian]

Last time I checked this was a test server... which means it will be deleted in the future, how far off is up to them, but in the end, it will all be erased. So an effort to keep your toon's and all your duped credits will eventually become another EPIC FAIL. I play this game with the understanding that if I put X amount of hours into it, it will be for testing and not picking up where my toon left off on Ahazi. Once the kiddies grasp this concept, and the OR is finished, perhaps then the whining will stop, but if I remember the community I played with, the whining has yet to begin.

As for the DEV's... you give in now, your Frak'd the kiddies will only get louder now.

[Jason2444]

If this wasn't sarcasm, get a grip, check your still in the box Star Wars action figures - and then go outside and pray to god you don't get herpes.

sun light gives me aids

[Kainzo]

sun light gives me aids

Fair enough

[Jordak Lestenya]

Anyone else notice that those screenshots that are supposedly evidence of a moderator "fixing" the polls actually show more votes being removed from no columns than yes columns? I don't have moderator access to the forums, so can't really see what options are available there, but the difference between the two screenshots is very minimal lol. We are talking about 2-3 votes being removed. Hardly evidence to call things a conspiracy.

As for us ignoring the community - The complete opposite is going on here. Yeah the majority said they would like a wipe, but the majority said they wanted a wipe with blue frogs.

There was a lot more behind the decision - it's not that the whining minority won out. We started thinking about the real effects the blue frogs would have, and realized offering them as a condition of the poll was a mistake.
- Players would have exploited the frogs to become Jedi faster, and it would have taken away some interdependence since everyone could become self sufficient.
- Changing the frogs to guard against these exploits meant changing the terms of condition.
- A third poll was discussed and decided against.
- We felt that if we just left TC the way it was, then it would be the best thing for both parties.

Instead we get crucified and compared to SOE. Come on people.

OR at the current rate is approximately 5 months out. But as always, Developers lives and available time can fluctuate at any given moment, changing the amount of time we have to contribute. Obviously this can drastically affect any ETA. So, yeah, if things stayed the way they had been rolling, I would say 5 months is realistic. I doubt the motivation will be there with all the lynching, but we will see.

P.S. Enjoy the new loot tables.

Kudos For The Good Descision! =DDD

[cyschli]

I haven't read the full 52 pages of posts here, so this might have been suggested already...

Can the devs patch in the dupe fixes anyhow? This should help the economy to settle down and make the people who wanted the wipe happy even though they didn't get the wipe.

Just my 2 cents. :)

[karnax]

I am scratching my head. I thought we needed a 66% majority to proceed with a wipe not a 66% majority plus no QQing. Anyways I still don't care what happens but kinda funny how I feel slightly disapointed now there isn't a wipe coming. I was just amused when I read this topic this morning hehe.

Sometimes you will need to upset a few people to get a job done for the majority to be happy. do not spend your time trying so hard not bo be SOE, because you will not be able to move forward. somebody has to take the bullet from time to time. Just find the balance.

I spose at this point the wipe isn't that important hence it didn't seem worth the hassle. But in future beware of the crybabies, they are a menace.

[Evil Cyborg 10]

If they wiped, people would QQ
so they haven't and people are qq'ing.

They can't win.

[Harsk]

Anyone else notice that those screenshots that are supposedly evidence of a moderator "fixing" the polls actually show more votes being removed from no columns than yes columns? I don't have moderator access to the forums, so can't really see what options are available there, but the difference between the two screenshots is very minimal lol. We are talking about 2-3 votes being removed. Hardly evidence to call things a conspiracy.

As for us ignoring the community - The complete opposite is going on here. Yeah the majority said they would like a wipe, but the majority said they wanted a wipe with blue frogs.

There was a lot more behind the decision - it's not that the whining minority won out. We started thinking about the real effects the blue frogs would have, and realized offering them as a condition of the poll was a mistake.
- Players would have exploited the frogs to become Jedi faster, and it would have taken away some interdependence since everyone could become self sufficient.
- Changing the frogs to guard against these exploits meant changing the terms of condition.
- A third poll was discussed and decided against.
- We felt that if we just left TC the way it was, then it would be the best thing for both parties.

Instead we get crucified and compared to SOE. Come on people.

OR at the current rate is approximately 5 months out. But as always, Developers lives and available time can fluctuate at any given moment, changing the amount of time we have to contribute. Obviously this can drastically affect any ETA. So, yeah, if things stayed the way they had been rolling, I would say 5 months is realistic. I doubt the motivation will be there with all the lynching, but we will see.

P.S. Enjoy the new loot tables.


Thats all fine and good, but why were the frogs even offered in the poll then? Just my opinion, but that sounds more like a convient excuse. If the frogs were not offered and the wipe without frogs was still in the lead, would the wipe have happened? From what I have read from you guys excluding the possible issues with the frogs, I am guessing no.

[BigEvil]

One of the things I teach is Military Standards and Enforcement.

Many years ago, to make an example, they would put a convict, usually a pirate, in a cage at the entrace to ports so persons understood the consequences of their actions.

Same thing could apply anywhere...even here. Make an example of a cheater or two.

Sometimes, you gotta put somebody in the cage....simple as that. An example simply must be made. Thats how you take care of it. Fear of repercusson is what keeps most folks honest. Toss up all that feel good into the air that you want, but we drive 55 when we see a cop because of fear, not a sense of right.

Lets put somebody in the cage....

http://i42.tinypic.com/2yngzgi.jpg

[Mujahed]

http://j.imagehost.org/0032/swgbug.jpg

[butjer100]

This poll should be closed, to much sarcasm and ranting
The devs got the point, next time, they wont ask the community .. and do what they like best, i would ..

[Mujahed]

This poll should be closed, to much sarcasm and ranting
The devs got the point, next time, they wont ask the community .. and do what they like best, i would ..

You mean like they did with the wipe?

[Timbab]

http://j.imagehost.org/0032/swgbug.jpg

Lmfao.

[Joshino]

http://j.imagehost.org/0032/swgbug.jpg

eldiablol/

[riseofdarkness]

Pfft, so much for the huge comeback I was going to make, back to WoW for now :D

[Joshino]

Pfft, so much for the huge comeback I was going to make, back to WoW for now :D

Nooo rise noooo!!

[Raiden Nar]

To be honest, yeah i will still play but properly not as much. WHy lie to the part of the community that voted for a wipe? I have 37 Freinds leaving because of the lies. I just want a member of staff to answer this?

[Kaiho]

You know what SWGEmu team are the ones doing the hard work on this and the fact that they are giving us an opportunity to voice our opinion is awesome. I think if they want to do a wipe on a TEST CENTER then by all means go for it.

[Lamune]

Well, If it was 63% yes, they state before hand that to wipe would require a 2/3 vote; meaning 66%. So if it was 63% to 36% there would still be no wipe...

It was 66.95% at the time of closing, vs a majority 66% threshold. And that was with a- literally- last second flood of additional "No, but I don't care" votes.

The "conspiracy theories" about vote tampering are idiotic, but also pointless- even if Diebold was running the poll, the results started very high in favor of a clean slate and never dropped below 66%.

I was among the 'yes' votes, but it's pretty clear that members of the Emu Staff were against the wipe. Their votes should weigh quite a bit heavier than ours. It is their ball.

[Raiden Nar]

You know what SWGEmu team are the ones doing the hard work on this and the fact that they are giving us an opportunity to voice our opinion is awesome. I think if they want to do a wipe on a TEST CENTER then by all means go for it.


See, another point to wipe. This is a Test Center so they could have tested new ways to stop people duping, new ways of unlocking jedi. Thats 2 things they could have tested by doing a wipe. But they are not testing anything now.

[Kainzo]

To be honest, yeah i will still play but properly not as much. WHy lie to the part of the community that voted for a wipe? I have 37 Freinds leaving because of the lies. I just want a member of staff to answer this?

37 friends leaving? Dear lord. I have 150 friends staying because of no wipe that were going to leave if it were wiped.

Shall we continue with the insane statements?

[Cunoine]

hmm people seem to be really worked up...

[Raiden Nar]

37 friends leaving? Dear lord. I have 150 friends staying because of no wipe that were going to leave if it were wiped.

Shall we continue with the insane statements?

Well to be honest we needed a wipe to test new things.

[Kainzo]

Well to be honest we needed a wipe to test new things.

No, we didn't. If they wanted to fix duping it could be done without a dB wipe. Their "fixing" was to disable banking terms ( the cause of duping ) which they could still do now.

In fact, wipe or not, they added NEW loot tables for us to explore.

[BigEvil]

To be honest, yeah i will still play but properly not as much. WHy lie to the part of the community that voted for a wipe? I have 37 Freinds leaving because of the lies. I just want a member of staff to answer this?

Already done about 1,384 pages back in this thread...

Anyone else notice that those screenshots that are supposedly evidence of a moderator "fixing" the polls actually show more votes being removed from no columns than yes columns? I don't have moderator access to the forums, so can't really see what options are available there, but the difference between the two screenshots is very minimal lol. We are talking about 2-3 votes being removed. Hardly evidence to call things a conspiracy.

As for us ignoring the community - The complete opposite is going on here. Yeah the majority said they would like a wipe, but the majority said they wanted a wipe with blue frogs.

There was a lot more behind the decision - it's not that the whining minority won out. We started thinking about the real effects the blue frogs would have, and realized offering them as a condition of the poll was a mistake.
- Players would have exploited the frogs to become Jedi faster, and it would have taken away some interdependence since everyone could become self sufficient.
- Changing the frogs to guard against these exploits meant changing the terms of condition.
- A third poll was discussed and decided against.
- We felt that if we just left TC the way it was, then it would be the best thing for both parties.

Instead we get crucified and compared to SOE. Come on people.

OR at the current rate is approximately 5 months out. But as always, Developers lives and available time can fluctuate at any given moment, changing the amount of time we have to contribute. Obviously this can drastically affect any ETA. So, yeah, if things stayed the way they had been rolling, I would say 5 months is realistic. I doubt the motivation will be there with all the lynching, but we will see.

P.S. Enjoy the new loot tables.

[Gray Mouser]

Pfft, so much for the huge comeback I was going to make, back to WoW for now :D

I guess a fancy sig does not a gamer make.

[Lazerbrick]

As for us ignoring the community - The complete opposite is going on here. Yeah the majority said they would like a wipe, but the majority said they wanted a wipe with blue frogs.

Instead we get crucified and compared to SOE. Come on people.

I doubt the motivation will be there with all the lynching, but we will see.



first off how is doing the opposite of what a majority of people supported in a poll you guys rephrased and recreated multiple times not ignoring the community.... Again in the terms of YOUR poll a yes is a yes, its not the communities fault you gave blue frogs as an option in a poll that we thought you would honor.
Second, honestly what did you expect. The staff has seen the reaction from this community after many of the public relations blunders that have been made. If yall were not prepared for the outcome the poll should not have been created to start with, and then def not remade after the first catastrophe.
Third, if the developers are doing this project purely due to community support, you might as well stop now. its a little insulting to the people following the project to try and blame any delays on their lack of apprecation for your efforts. If the developers were not getting something out of the project, then why waste your time with it. There is other projects working on this style of game that dont need the coddling of a community to work, so what is their motivation?

[LanShark]

With all the flaws, this is still the closest thing to Galaxies as I loved it. I can not express enough appreciation to the folks who work to bring this to life. Last time I checked, no one is being charged money to play...they could probably make great headway on this project if they shut it down for a few months to not have to deal with all the demands an operational server places on their time.

Thanks guys/gals for the work and the server...

LanShark

[Deus In Machina]

*opens the door*

You guys are still there? lol

*steps back then closes the door*

[krupintupple]

with all the flaws, this is still the closest thing to galaxies as i loved it. I can not express enough appreciation to the folks who work to bring this to life. Last time i checked, no one is being charged money to play...they could probably make great headway on this project if they shut it down for a few months to not have to deal with all the demands an operational server places on their time.

Thanks guys/gals for the work and the server...

Lanshark

this!

[tonkatuff]

No, we didn't. If they wanted to fix duping it could be done without a dB wipe. Their "fixing" was to disable banking terms ( the cause of duping ) which they could still do now.

In fact, wipe or not, they added NEW loot tables for us to explore.

Not NEW. Just changed.

[Kainzo]

Not NEW. Just changed.

Is it the same as before the massive whining? No, they changed it and now its different, or i dont know, new.

What a senseless post. Crawl back under thy rock from whence ye came.

[tonkatuff]

Is it the same as before the massive whining? No, they changed it and now its different, or i dont know, new.

What a senseless post. Crawl back under thy rock from whence ye came.

You make it sound like they added stuff. What is there to explore when damage is lowered or certain mobs dont drop items anymore? If anything , its the total opposite of exploring, because you already know whats there.

You are a retard, helmet , mouth piec, the whole 9.

[Kainzo]

You make it sound like they added stuff. What is there to explore when damage is lowered or certain mobs dont drop items anymore? If anything , its the total opposite of exploring, because you already know whats there.

You are a retard, helmet , mouth piec, the whole 9.

If you spent half the time playing the game, as you do posting mindless garbage, you may actually enjoy yourself.

Despite it being changed to something you don't like, it still is considered new. Your bias in this situation affects your ability to reason.

Have fun :)

[Raiden Nar]

If you spent half the time playing the game, as you do posting mindless garbage, you may actually enjoy yourself.

Despite it being changed to something you don't like, it still is considered new. Your bias in this situation affects your ability to reason.

Have fun :)


Please just shut the **** up flaming peoples posts ok? Everyone has there opinion so just shut up.

[Kainzo]

Please just shut the **** up flaming peoples posts ok? Everyone has there opinion so just shut up.

If everyone has their own opinion, am I not entitled to my own?

Cruel irony, I doth love thee.

[kailos]

If everyone has their own opinion, am I not entitled to my own?

Cruel irony, I doth love thee.

From what I can see you flame more peoples posts than add anything constructive.

Having your own opinion about the TOPIC is fine, and you should voice it.

But flaming individuals opinions and personal attacks because someone has a different opinion, are a waste of forum space, your not the only one but your one of them.

[tonkatuff]

If everyone has their own opinion, am I not entitled to my own?

Cruel irony, I doth love thee.

Where did I say I didnt like it? I love the idea they are fixing loot.

You are just some punk ass kid who JUST signed up who is here to flame (I mean you are a fairy after all).

It still isnt new. They arent adding anything new lol.

[Kainzo]

From what I can see you flame more peoples posts than add anything constructive.

Having your own opinion about the TOPIC is fine, and you should voice it.

But flaming individuals opinions and personal attacks because someone has a different opinion, are a waste of forum space, your not the only one but your one of them.

If you refer back to previous posts, I provided information that even though there were no wipe, it would still offer some "new" content, ie different loot table, as previously stated by a developer, cRush.

The forums fly by fast, its understandable, I was merely integrating that message to the inflamed user.

As for flames, whoever jumped on me about it not being NEW but "different" is the person flaming needlessly.

A group of people sitting around shouting for no reason doesn't make sense, if you have information and it is possible to diverge their perspective, why not aid them?

[tonkatuff]

What kind of drugs are you on? lol. It is NOT new content if nothing NEW is added. I mean instead of mobs dropping a max dmg 1450 T21, they will drop max dmg 750 T21s... is that new? No, its not. There is NOTHING additional being added.

[Kainzo]

It's a matter of perspective. Since there won't be overpowered guns dropping making WS crafter items useless, I would say that is "new" content. Despite you not liking the change, doesn't merit it useless.

Semantics.

[tranewreck]

wow, i hear lots of complains about a FREE game. Hours of time spent on programming a game the was destroyed by SOE on their own time. Im pretty sure most of you here complaining have not a clue what it has taken to even get this game to the playable point it is, but you sure ass hell study how to dupe, cheat and talk **** the entire way through the process. These guys arent SOE, they asked a simple question about a wipe that im sure they dreaded posting. For the Devs, thank you. done a hell of a job, for all you crybabies out there, leave... go play wow or star trek online. FLAME ON!!

[safak]

Anyone else notice that those screenshots that are supposedly evidence of a moderator "fixing" the polls actually show more votes being removed from no columns than yes columns? I don't have moderator access to the forums, so can't really see what options are available there, but the difference between the two screenshots is very minimal lol. We are talking about 2-3 votes being removed. Hardly evidence to call things a conspiracy.



those were my screenshots. while im not even one who cares all that much about a wipe, its 100% shows something weird.

and its not even about the missing votes. the problem is, it basicly shows 20 votes in a row for a 15% answer in the span of less than a minute. actually 19 more votes were cast, one removed from here, put there..but 20 were put into option c.
something that cannot happen legitimately.

the odds of rolling a 6 on a die is slightly greater than 16%, so even better than 'option c'. see if you can roll 5 in a row let alone 20. will never happen. you could try for years and never hit 7 in a row.

i realize that isn't exactly the same thing but in a poll with that big of a sample size, its just impossible to happen, even if it were a 75% majority answer let alone one that was below 15%

[Firaxis]

Personally this was good for me at least...I have a family and I don't have plenty of time playing swg. I like my toon that I have played with since last year and it would be kind of boring and it would take a lot of precious time to build up that character again after a wipe.

[Mujahed]

Think the devs get no profit from this? Even if there's barely cash left besides the donations, there's more types of gain. I'm too old to believe the entire dev team exists of zealot altruists.

[Kayliaah]

As expected, epic lols.
GG.

[tazman1701]

Good job keeping things under control admins. Though I am disappointed that the majority includign myself voted for a wipe and it is not going to happen I can see why. I have been following the forums very closley and all I can see is a follows.
***** ***** ***** Whine Whine Cry tantrum ***** whine cry.
I am sorry that you asked for mature opinions and this comunity only proves that we need you to feed us and change our nappies. This is going to bring a whole lot of hell from the people that dont care however those of us that want to see this done and done right truely understand the need for a intact community and if wiping would split the comunity then no wipe was the right descion.

[BigEvil]

I hope we get even MORE donations. More Solid State Devices and high end stuff = greasy server performance in the long run.

[Kraschman]

Wrong.
The VAST majority voted for a wipe.
One or more moderators on this board altered the vote count and then deleted the poll thread.

(I'll post these links again since I know it'll be asked)
http://img191.imageshack.us/i/pollafterclose.png/
http://img689.imageshack.us/i/pollaminutebeforeclose.png/

Take a close look at those numbers.

All that proves is that you know how to take a screenshot.

Do you have access to the vote records to know how each account voted? Do you have access to the account logs to ensure all the accounts that voted are unique users and not dupe accounts?

If not, there's no way we can trust ANY of the votes on face value.

You're treating the before pic as solid numbers, which they may not actually be. The vote count may have been altered long before the vote ended, by users let alone any possible fixing by the mods.

With the lack of proof to the contrary, the entire vote is suspect, not just the last minute.

[kookaburra]

And your amount donated is?


Not much, but more than you apparently! :eek:

[kookaburra]

All that proves is that you know how to take a screenshot.

Do you have access to the vote records to know how each account voted? Do you have access to the account logs to ensure all the accounts that voted are unique users and not dupe accounts?

If not, there's no way we can trust ANY of the votes on face value.

You're treating the before pic as solid numbers, which they may not actually be. The vote count may have been altered long before the vote ended, by users let alone any possible fixing by the mods.

With the lack of proof to the contrary, the entire vote is suspect, not just the last minute.

You're not looking close enough. Unless you have an explanation about how people cast NEGATIVE votes.

[Izure]

wow, i hear lots of complains about a FREE game. Hours of time spent on programming a game the was destroyed by SOE on their own time. Im pretty sure most of you here complaining have not a clue what it has taken to even get this game to the playable point it is, but you sure ass hell study how to dupe, cheat and talk **** the entire way through the process. These guys arent SOE, they asked a simple question about a wipe that im sure they dreaded posting. For the Devs, thank you. done a hell of a job, for all you crybabies out there, leave... go play wow or star trek online. FLAME ON!!

100%

Rest of you whining at devs, **** You.

How dare you whine at the devs for a free game, building a game on their own time, to relive the Pre-CU golden days.

If you cant take it leave, we dont want you in the community anways, ****ing kids these days.

Good job devs, do what needs to be done in your own mind.

That said, while the devs might not see any money in their pocket, I am sure creating a emulator for any type of a game is a +1 on a resume and the donations for equipment needed will always be in their hands, not saying they arent making no profit at all in any form, but they arent going to get rich.

Also if the OR is delivered and promised, and JTL is a for sure within a year or two after the OR, I would pay a 5-10 dollar subscription, asking anymore then 10 though is WAY out of whack.

But IMO the devs should at least ask for a 5 dollar monthly sub fee.

[Mujahed]

100%

Rest of you whining at devs, **** You.

How dare you whine at the devs for a free game, building a game on their own time, to relive the Pre-CU golden days.

If you cant take it leave, we dont want you in the community anways, ****ing kids these days.

Good job devs, do what needs to be done in your own mind.

That said, while the devs might not see any money in their pocket, I am sure creating a emulator for any type of a game is a +1 on a resume and the donations for equipment needed will always be in their hands, not saying they arent making no profit at all in any form, but they arent going to get rich.

Also if the OR is delivered and promised, and JTL is a for sure within a year or two after the OR, I would pay a 5-10 dollar subscription, asking anymore then 10 though is WAY out of whack.

But IMO the devs should at least ask for a 5 dollar monthly sub fee.

Yes they do this on their own time, that's their choice. Nobody's thanking me for mowing my mother's lawn on my own time.

[Kraschman]

You're not looking close enough. Unless you have an explanation about how people cast NEGATIVE votes.

And you're missing the point. Do we have any proof that the POSITIVE votes weren't fudged?

[Baigs]

Not much, but more than you apparently! :eek:

Aye since you were called on it.. might be wise to believe to pay to play if you pay first not after you make bold statements :)

[Lazerbrick]

100%

Rest of you whining at devs, **** You.

How dare you whine at the devs for a free game, building a game on their own time, to relive the Pre-CU golden days.

If you cant take it leave, we dont want you in the community anways, ****ing kids these days.

Good job devs, do what needs to be done in your own mind.

That said, while the devs might not see any money in their pocket, I am sure creating a emulator for any type of a game is a +1 on a resume and the donations for equipment needed will always be in their hands, not saying they arent making no profit at all in any form, but they arent going to get rich.

Also if the OR is delivered and promised, and JTL is a for sure within a year or two after the OR, I would pay a 5-10 dollar subscription, asking anymore then 10 though is WAY out of whack.

But IMO the devs should at least ask for a 5 dollar monthly sub fee.

so much wrong with this.

[Kraschman]

Yes they do this on their own time, that's their choice. Nobody's thanking me for mowing my mother's lawn on my own time.

Except maybe your mother. The recipient of your mowing prowess.

We are the recipients of the dev's largesse of time and effort spent rebuilding the Pre-CU game we're playing.

[kookaburra]

Also if the OR is delivered and promised, and JTL is a for sure within a year or two after the OR, I would pay a 5-10 dollar subscription, asking anymore then 10 though is WAY out of whack.

But IMO the devs should at least ask for a 5 dollar monthly sub fee.

wow...
Isn't that code for "I will never donate"?

Why would $15/month be WAY out of whack for a FULLY functional SWG emulator?

They won't be requiring monthly fees either. Unless I'm mistaken that would bring in the lawyers from both SOE and Lucas....

[kookaburra]

Aye since you were called on it.. might be wise to believe to pay to play if you pay first not after you make bold statements :)

Uhm. no... I donated over a month ago.
I'm not playing right now so I'm not donating right now.

[Baigs]

Uhm. no... I donated over a month ago.

My apologies then I guess you had it invisible until today and when I made my post it had shown you as never having donated

[Mujahed]

And you're missing the point. Do we have any proof that the POSITIVE votes weren't fudged?

Innocent until proven guilty? No evidence for either? Then accept the damn vote.

[kookaburra]

My apologies then I guess you had it invisible until today and when I made my post it had shown you as never having donated

Yeah, I've noticed for some reason it doesn't always show up.

I realize circumstances are present that prevent some users from donating. But the vast majority of people who ARE playing just choose to not take the time to do so. Most people could part with $5/month without even thinking about it.

Regardless of what has happened over the last few days, I would be very happy to see the SWGEmu 1.0 finished.

[Kraschman]

Innocent until proven guilty? No evidence for either? Then accept the damn vote.

Or toss the suspect vote out. Innocent until proven guilty? This isn't a court of law. It's not necessarily even a democracy.

BTW just WE don't have evidence doesn't necessarily mean the DEVS don't.

[Baigs]

Yeah, I've noticed for some reason it doesn't always show up.

I realize circumstances are present that prevent some users from donating. But the vast majority of people who ARE playing just choose to not take the time to do so. Most people could part with $5/month without even thinking about it.

yea they don't accept food stamps. or amounts under $5 >.<

[Izure]

wow...
Isn't that code for "I will never donate"?

Why would $15/month be WAY out of whack for a FULLY functional SWG emulator?

They won't be requiring monthly fees either. Unless I'm mistaken that would bring in the lawyers from both SOE and Lucas....

Because there is 50 other fully functional MMORPGS for free, and this game is old as fck.

Asking any more for 5-7.50/month would be Overpriced, that is my personal opinion, I would probably still pay 10-15, but I doubt we will see the population we want if it was 5 or none /month.

BTW did you even read my post, or you talking about someone else's posts? because you made no sense.

But can't they make the 5-10/month fee be made as maintence instead of profit and be legal?

[Kraschman]

Because there is 50 other fully functional MMORPGS for free, and this game is old as fck.

Asking any more for 5-7.50/month would be Overpriced, that is my personal opinion, I would probably still pay 10-15, but I doubt we will see the population we want if it was 5 or none /month.

ahhhh but how many of those free MMOs are Star Wars-related?

[Kainzo]

Because there is 50 other fully functional MMORPGS for free, and this game is old as fck.

Asking any more for 5-7.50/month would be Overpriced, that is my personal opinion, I would probably still pay 10-15, but I doubt we will see the population we want if it was 5 or none /month.

Just because a game is "newer" doesn't make it better or more fun... There could be 150 new games but the simple fact is, it isn't Star Wars galaxies pre-cu.

So yeah, I can see donations coming into play.

[kookaburra]

Because there is 50 other fully functional MMORPGS for free, and this game is old as fck.


yeah, I've actually tried a lot of them after I got WoW burnout.
Quite frankly, they suck.

[Izure]

Just because a game is "newer" doesn't make it better or more fun... There could be 150 new games but the simple fact is, it isn't Star Wars galaxies pre-cu.

So yeah, I can see donations coming into play.

Point is, asking for more than 10 a month would be considered greed, no matter how you look at it, at least in todays world with what they are offering.

Don't see how the dev team can justify a 15 month sub for this EMU, 5-8 is more realistic.

[Dorkybob]

I voted for the wipe with the frogs, if the wipe was gonna go at-least let us have a touch of help getting things up and going again.

It saddens me that duplicate accounts are still a large problem after such a fuss was made about them just a short time back. If you don't wanna ban IP addresses that's fine because people can clone those and get back in, but I'm sure that there are other methods that could be used, such as a one time purchase of a code to activate your account, this would allow for more moneys to support the server and better tracking of accounts and release the IP restrictions that are in place now. (oh and start the flames on this quick before my post gets cold)

I also was a touch confused with the outcome of the poll, I was around the 2010'th or so to vote and from what I saw that the wipe votes did total in excess of 66+ %. So if you could please reply to the why the wipe was retracted I and many other would be greatful, even if it's just a simple, (look we wanted to give you just a bit of something new, but seeing that there was such an out poor about it that we decided that it was more trouble than it was worth...) just be honest, because honesty goes a long way!

As for those folks that are Duping, track them, get the info that you need to stop it in the OR. Implement your new Duping and hacking code if you can without a wipe and see if it helps. (btw it takes a particular type of person to dupe and hack and that can be an asset in some cases. so yes use that asset and make the OR code better!) (I do not support Duping or hacking, nor do I do it, but to pass up the opportunity to strengthen the Server code base to stop such acts is just plain silly!)

So lets stop the QQing and get this show on the road folks, the OR needs the attention that would have been put into the wipe anyway, and two days put into the OR now is two days less we have to wait to test it!

[Mujahed]

Or toss the suspect vote out. Innocent until proven guilty? This isn't a court of law. It's not necessarily even a democracy.

BTW just WE don't have evidence doesn't necessarily mean the DEVS don't.

This sure as hell ain't a democracy!

[safak]

yeah, I've actually tried a lot of them after I got WoW burnout.
Quite frankly, they suck.
truth. i don't know how so many games can come out that are so terrible.
its to the point people think darkfall is fun. just because everything else is sooo bad that it makes that steaming pile of dog@#$@ seem ok in comparison.

[Kainzo]

I voted for the wipe with the frogs, if the wipe was gonna go at-least let us have a touch of help getting things up and going again.

It saddens me that duplicate accounts are still a large problem after such a fuss was made about them just a short time back. If you don't wanna ban IP addresses that's fine because people can clone those and get back in, but I'm sure that there are other methods that could be used, such as a one time purchase of a code to activate your account, this would allow for more moneys to support the server and better tracking of accounts and release the IP restrictions that are in place now. (oh and start the flames on this quick before my post gets cold)

I also was a touch confused with the outcome of the poll, I was around the 2010'th or so to vote and from what I saw that the wipe votes did total in excess of 66+ %. So if you could please reply to the why the wipe was retracted I and many other would be greatful, even if it's just a simple, (look we wanted to give you just a bit of something new, but seeing that there was such an out poor about it that we decided that it was more trouble than it was worth...) just be honest, because honesty goes a long way!

As for those folks that are Duping, track them, get the info that you need to stop it in the OR. Implement your new Duping and hacking code if you can without a wipe and see if it helps. (btw it takes a particular type of person to dupe and hack and that can be an asset in some cases. so yes use that asset and make the OR code better!) (I do not support Duping or hacking, nor do I do it, but to pass up the opportunity to strengthen the Server code base to stop such acts is just plain silly!)

So lets stop the QQing and get this show on the road folks, the OR needs the attention that would have been put into the wipe anyway, and two days put into the OR now is two days less we have to wait to test it!

cRush (dev) already replied to why it was redacted. I don't have the quote though im sure someone else does.

[Lamune]

You're not looking close enough. Unless you have an explanation about how people cast NEGATIVE votes.

*sigh*

I already explained this to you. The database did not properly record the last vote before the poll was closed and that brief site hiccup that soon followed. The -1's between screenshots can be attributed easily to nothing other than faults inherent in any database access over web interface.

While the sudden 20 votes is a bit more unusual, but hardly conspiratorial. "Hey, have you voted yet?" could have come up in a guild chat leading a bunch of people over at once.

But even assuming it is a government plot, your dice-roll comparison is still just stupid. Statistics like that require each option to have equal weight. These did not.

For example:
You have two choices- A.) A puppy. B.) A kick in the nuts.

These choices will not result in the same coin-flip probabilities you're trying to compare it to.

Nobody's thanking me for mowing my mother's lawn on my own time.

Your mother should be. That ungrateful 8!@%#

[Kraschman]

This sure as hell ain't a democracy!
And what ever gave you the misguided impression it was?

The Devs are doing all the coding and running of the server/forums, we are just enjoying the benefits of their work.

[Kainzo]

*sigh*

I already explained this to you. The database did not properly record the last vote before the poll was closed and that brief site hiccup that soon followed. The -1's between screenshots can be attributed easily to nothing other than faults inherent in any database access over web interface.

While the sudden 20 votes is a bit more unusual, but hardly conspiratorial. "Hey, have you voted yet?" could have come up in a guild chat leading a bunch of people over at once.

But even assuming it is a government plot, your dice-roll comparison is still just stupid. Statistics like that require each option to have equal weight. These did not.

For example:
You have two choices- A.) A puppy. B.) A kick in the nuts.

These choices will not result in the same coin-flip probabilities you're trying to compare it to.

Lamune, it's a breath of fresh air to actually read a post that isn't doused in 1) off topic / 3rd grade pictures 2) moronic flames or 3) a combination of the above two.

I applaud you sir. Thank you.

[Kraschman]

*sigh*

I already explained this to you. The database did not properly record the last vote before the poll was closed and that brief site hiccup that soon followed. The -1's between screenshots can be attributed easily to nothing other than faults inherent in any database access over web interface.

While the sudden 20 votes is a bit more unusual, but hardly conspiratorial. "Hey, have you voted yet?" could have come up in a guild chat leading a bunch of people over at once.

But even assuming it is a government plot, your dice-roll comparison is still just stupid. Statistics like that require each option to have equal weight. These did not.

For example:
You have two choices- A.) A puppy. B.) A kick in the nuts.

These choices will not result in the same coin-flip probabilities you're trying to compare it to.



Your mother should be. That ungrateful 8!@%#

I'll take the choice of the kick if I get to deliver it. :cool:

[Harsk]

Yes they do this on their own time, that's their choice. Nobody's thanking me for mowing my mother's lawn on my own time.

Thanks mang, I do the same and nobody thanks me ~.^

[Mujahed]

And what ever gave you the misguided impression it was?

The Devs are doing all the coding and running of the server/forums, we are just enjoying the benefits of their work.

Don't know. They said something about our opinion mattering somewhat and then they came with this poll which would let the community decide something. But I guess it was a joke!

[Kraschman]

Don't know. They said something about our opinion mattering somewhat and then they came with this poll which would let the community decide something. But I guess it was a joke!

Just because they solicited an opinion doesn't mean they were required to adhere to it. The fact they requested input matters even if the results don't ultimately make a difference. Still doesn't make it a democracy.

[Lamune]

Lamune, it's a breath of fresh air to actually read a post that isn't doused in 1) off topic / 3rd grade pictures

I guess I'm lucky I was unable to find a Lolcat pic related to statistical fallacies in my 5-second GIS. Would I still have got half credit? ;)

[Mujahed]

Just because they solicited an opinion doesn't mean they were required to adhere to it. The fact they requested input matters even if the results don't ultimately make a difference. Still doesn't make it a democracy.

It's misleading! Why don't they just close the forae again? Maybe just leave the poor fools a guide on how to play on the TC and donate? That's all they need basically.

They would never have gotten this far without the community and they know it. It's why they put up with this crowd. It's some community members themselves who clearly don't realise this.

[safak]

But even assuming it is a government plot, your dice-roll comparison is still just stupid. Statistics like that require each option to have equal weight. These did not.

For example:
You have two choices- A.) A puppy. B.) A kick in the nuts.




your argument would be weak, but semi-acceptable if it was a field of 20-30 to pull from. but there were 2000 or so votes, more than enough to prove that a >15% option is not going to jump to a 99.9% option. to think otherwise is simply not possible. a guild innactive enough to ignore the poll for hours and hours all voted the same exact within 30 seconds?come on now..

[waa]

the whole thing was farce

now all lets play nice and pamper the frail ego's of those who feel crucified from the bed they made

this isn't the 1st time, and surly will not be the last

[Kraschman]

It's misleading! Why don't they just close the forae again? Maybe just leave the poor fools a guide on how to play on the TC and donate? That's all they need basically.

They would never have gotten this far without the community and they know it. It's why they put up with this crowd. It's some community members themselves who clearly don't realise this.

Sure they would have.

Would it have taken much much longer? Yes. Would they have eventually reached the same point anyway? Of course.

It's still THEIR code and THEIR server. Surely you're not naive enough to believe that having the ability to voice an opinion makes us at all equal to them. It's not a democracy and never was. It's only misleading if you deluded yourself enough to actually believe it ever was. Be thankful we even get a voice...

[Lamune]

your argument would be weak, but semi-acceptable if it was a field of 20-30 to pull from. but there were 2000 or so votes, more than enough to prove that a >15% option is not going to jump to a 99.9% option.

Yeah, OK. Look, I could spell this out in more detail, but since facts aren't going to sway you, I'll try a different approach:

You're arguing about vote-fraud in a poll in which your supported camp WON.
The new negative votes, even illicit ones, did not change the results. Wipe wins.
Assuming you do prove tampering, you've just managed to invalidate results that confirmed your victory. Or in this case, had the entire poll dismissed. You've now cast doubt on the validity of your own team.

Congratulations.

[Baigs]

the whole thing was farce

now all lets play nice and pamper the frail ego's of those who feel crucified from the bed they made

this isn't the 1st time, and surly will not be the last

have you read through the thread? if Not.. then here is the LAST Dev comment..

What Crush wrote:

Anyone else notice that those screenshots that are supposedly evidence of a moderator "fixing" the polls actually show more votes being removed from no columns than yes columns? I don't have moderator access to the forums, so can't really see what options are available there, but the difference between the two screenshots is very minimal lol. We are talking about 2-3 votes being removed. Hardly evidence to call things a conspiracy.

As for us ignoring the community - The complete opposite is going on here. Yeah the majority said they would like a wipe, but the majority said they wanted a wipe with blue frogs.

There was a lot more behind the decision - it's not that the whining minority won out. We started thinking about the real effects the blue frogs would have, and realized offering them as a condition of the poll was a mistake.
- Players would have exploited the frogs to become Jedi faster, and it would have taken away some interdependence since everyone could become self sufficient.
- Changing the frogs to guard against these exploits meant changing the terms of condition.
- A third poll was discussed and decided against.
- We felt that if we just left TC the way it was, then it would be the best thing for both parties.

Instead we get crucified and compared to SOE. Come on people.

OR at the current rate is approximately 5 months out. But as always, Developers lives and available time can fluctuate at any given moment, changing the amount of time we have to contribute. Obviously this can drastically affect any ETA. So, yeah, if things stayed the way they had been rolling, I would say 5 months is realistic. I doubt the motivation will be there with all the lynching, but we will see.

P.S. Enjoy the new loot tables.

[Kendo1972]

as my grandmother always says "quit your gurnin' ya gam****es..." although i believe a wipe would be nice to get the economy back and people can "try" to keep it low it probably wont happen... oh wait... it WONT happen...just like a wipe...

[Mujahed]

Sure they would have.

Would it have taken much much longer? Yes. Would they have eventually reached the same point anyway? Of course.

It's still THEIR code and THEIR server. Surely you're not naive enough to believe that having the ability to voice an opinion makes us at all equal to them. It's not a democracy and never was. It's only misleading if you deluded yourself enough to actually believe it ever was. Be thankful we even get a voice...

Lol? How long have you been following the project?
The community has done a lot more than offer its opinion. The devs aren't the only ones gathering the code and if it weren't for the community, the project would have died out along with the old dev team.

[kookaburra]

If the SWGEmu staff is so thin-skinned that they can't recover from a problem that they themselves created, then this project is doomed.

[safak]

Yeah, OK. Look, I could spell this out in more detail, but since facts aren't going to sway you, I'll try a different approach:

You're arguing about vote-fraud in a poll in which your supported camp WON.
The new negative votes, even illicit ones, did not change the results. Wipe wins.
Assuming you do prove tampering, you've just managed to invalidate results that confirmed your victory. Or in this case, had the entire poll dismissed. You've now cast doubt on the validity of your own team.

Congratulations.


i honestly don't care who wins. i don't pvp, i just recently started to play more than a little bit.
im just relaxing grinding up varios professions.

i don't care if the devs say screw you guys we don't feel like wiping. they are doing the work, they aren't getting paid. i don't care what they do, they have the right.

doesn't change the fact that im right on this subject, there is no other possible explanation. and everytime someone realizes they change the subject and attack a different angle that im not even arguing for(i.e. you just now)

[Lamune]

as my grandmother always says "quit your gurnin' ya gam****es..." although i believe a wipe would be nice to get the economy back and people can "try" to keep it low it probably wont happen... oh wait... it WONT happen...just like a wipe...

As with some of the other important information they slipped in later, such as the "fixes" involving shutting off the banks and removing harvesters, if they would have let us in on the fact that the OR is potentially 6-months or less from deployment it would have potentially changed the results even more.

Knowing the timeline, I see even less reason to wipe now. Even my "hell yeah!" vote would have moved to the "Not really, but don't care..." column.

[Sharrah]

I love the people who are predicting mass exits or are threatening to quit themselves. This is a test server with no charges. What do you expect for nothing?

Thank you Devs for providing me with hours of fun.

[Lamune]

doesn't change the fact that im right on this subject, there is no other possible explanation.

http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/47/facepalmm.jpg

[safak]

http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/47/facepalmm.jpg


in other words,

'i can't win this argument that i started, so ill post a pointless cartoon as a backhanded dig at her to divert the fact of getting owned'


a simple, 'i see your point, you are right and i am wrong' would have been nicer but basicly the same thing

[Dialgo]

I still support SWGEMU! Go go devs! Forget the QQ'ers

[Kraschman]

Lol? How long have you been following the project?
The community has done a lot more than offer its opinion. The devs aren't the only ones gathering the code and if it weren't for the community, the project would have died out along with the old dev team.

Having more lanes on a highway allow more cars to arrive at the destination in a given time, it does not mean that all those cars wouldn't have eventually arrived even on a one-lane road.

They've given a rather detailed explanation of what happened. Short story, they decided frogs were not good despite the vote and chose to continue with the status quo as is their prerogative.

Let's quit arguing about supposed conspiracies and get back to playing and testing eh?

[Mujahed]

Having more lanes on a highway allow more cars to arrive at the destination in a given time, it does not mean that all those cars wouldn't have eventually arrived even on a one-lane road.

They've given a rather detailed explanation of what happened. Short story, they decided frogs were not good despite the vote and chose to continue with the status quo as is their prerogative.

Let's quit arguing about supposed conspiracies and get back to playing and testing eh?

Yes but having more lanes and bigger lanes that allow for more cars where one of those drivers might just have the tools we need to remove that fallen tree on the road, otherwise making it impossible to get to the destination.

[BankyEdwards]

I swear this thread reads like old soe forums. and like soe the devs here seemed to ignore the majority and side with the minority whiners. These people would whine if I gave them a $20 bill for nothing cause it wasn't a $50. These are probably some of the same people that whined back at SOE that brought the CU and the start to the end.

[Kraschman]

Yes but having more lanes and bigger lanes that allow for more cars where one of those drivers might just have the tools we need to remove that fallen tree on the road, otherwise making it impossible to get to the destination.

Or you just use a lot of elbow grease and/or time. Your analogy is still flawed.

They'd have gotten where they are now. Without any doubt it would have taken far longer, but arrive they would have.

[RavenLock]

***

[Mujahed]

Or you just use a lot of elbow grease and/or time. Your analogy is still flawed.

They'd have gotten where they are now. Without any doubt it would have taken far longer, but arrive they would have.

No?! Why else did they ask the community for help way back and stated they were completely stuck without people helping?

[BigEvil]

I think the really interesting thing is that I've seen old timers ive never seen before in forums, and some that I havent seen in a long time. Must be a big event indeed. All the best people have been invited.

For good or bad, nice to see all the kids around the fire. LOL.

[Lamune]

in other words, 'i can't win this argument that i started, so ill post a pointless cartoon as a backhanded dig at her to divert the fact of getting owned'

Actually it was more of a "Oh geezuz, I'm arguing with helmet-wearing doorknob licker. I think I'm going to stop now."

There isn't much point into getting into a logical debate with someone insisting "... there is no other possible explanation."

I could have also gone with a picture of Morbo from Futurama yelling STATISTICS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY! to your grossly inaccurate 1-in-6 example with the dice roll, but I try to limit myself to 1 image macro per internet argument.

[Kraschman]

No?! Why else did they ask the community for help way back and stated they were completely stuck without people helping?
Let's see, because they wanted it done faster and they used a little hyperbole and exaggeration when asking.

C'mon don't be obtuse. This concept isn't that hard to grasp. Do you really expect people to put serious effort into helping if you say "we'd like some help. We can do this alone, but it'll take a really really long time."

Sure SOME people will help, but not nearly as much or as many as if you create a crisis. Otherwise inertia will keep people from putting in real effort to help.

[Kainzo]

Actually it was more of a "Oh geezuz, I'm arguing with helmet-wearing doorknob licker. I think I'm going to stop now."

There isn't much point into getting into a logical debate with someone insisting "... there is no other possible explanation."

I could have also gone with a picture of Morbo from Futurama yelling STATISTICS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY! to your grossly inaccurate 1-in-6 example with the dice roll, but I try to limit myself to 1 image macro per internet argument.

On a side note, I love Morbo.

Morbo is pleased but sticky.

[Mujahed]

Let's see, because they wanted it done faster and they used a little hyperbole and exaggeration when asking.

C'mon don't be obtuse. This concept isn't that hard to grasp. Do you really expect people to put serious effort into helping if you say "we'd like some help. We can do this alone, but it'll take a really really long time."

Sure SOME people will help, but not nearly as much or as many as if you create a crisis. Otherwise inertia will keep people from putting in real effort to help.

Creating a crisis would make them look incompetent.

Stating that they'd have it done real soon if everyone helped would get people psyched enough to learn programming.

[Baigs]

:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:

[Kraschman]

Creating a crisis would make them look incompetent.

Stating that they'd have it done real soon if everyone helped would get people psyched enough to learn programming.

Just like all the players here now are learning programming? (Oh wait, that's not happening?) You're also assuming that everybody would have known the crisis is false, which is not that likely.

You're obviously not going to get this concept. Trying to explain further is just flogging Baigs' dead horse.

[Crazyduck]

I really don't understand why people are leaving because of the wipe... I voted yes but this TC will get wiped anyway.

[Mujahed]

Just like all the players here now are learning programming? (Oh wait, that's not happening?) You're also assuming that everybody would have known the crisis is false, which is not that likely.

You're obviously not going to get this concept. Trying to explain further is just flogging Baigs' dead horse.

Most of the original team is long gone.
Do you understand that the current dev team has had intensive recruitment from the community? I need say no more.

[jonna]

i lol at all that lol at lollers. wtf! this is a private game bulid. take what you get folks! we all know that in the end it is gonna be good. i would like a wipe but ill take it as it is for now.

[Ekowraith]

There was a lot more behind the decision - it's not that the whining minority won out. We started thinking about the real effects the blue frogs would have, and realized offering them as a condition of the poll was a mistake.
- Players would have exploited the frogs to become Jedi faster, and it would have taken away some interdependence since everyone could become self sufficient.
- Changing the frogs to guard against these exploits meant changing the terms of condition.
- A third poll was discussed and decided against.
- We felt that if we just left TC the way it was, then it would be the best thing for both parties.

What you're doing is listing "no" points in defense of the decision to ignore the community. Your points have a place: in the dialog and debate that led up to the poll and it's outcome. Despite these hypothetical consequences, an overwhelming majority of voters still favored a wipe.

It would be like if, following the 2008 elections, the Bush administration announced,
"Hey guys. We appreciate all the debate and discussion surrounding this whole election, but ultimately, we decided that a Democrat administration wouldn't be able to properly run the country. After much internal discussion, we have decided to retain control of the executive branch.
-A liberal executive would be likely to drive up the national deficit with immense federal spending.
-A democrat executive would increase the tax burden.
-A democrat president would reduce incentives to work through socializing programs."

Dispute the analogy all you want, but the ultimate point is this: such points were already a part of the debate that led up to the poll/election's turnouts. If these criticisms of a server wipe are true, let the people who voted for it sit with the consequences. Simply restating the minority position and ignoring the majority is senseless.

[Kraschman]

Most of the original team is long gone.
Do you understand that the current dev team has had intensive recruitment from the community? I need say no more.

That still doesn't change the fact that most players are NOT programmers and are not involved in coding. Your point is still moot.

[Kraschman]

What you're doing is listing "no" points in defense of the decision to ignore the community. Your points have a place: in the dialog and debate that led up to the poll and it's outcome. Despite these hypothetical consequences, an overwhelming majority of voters still favored a wipe.

It would be like if, following the 2008 elections, the Bush administration announced,
"Hey guys. We appreciate all the debate and discussion surrounding this whole election, but ultimately, we decided that a Democrat administration wouldn't be able to properly run the country. After much internal discussion, we have decided to retain control of the executive branch.
-A liberal executive would be likely to drive up the national deficit with immense federal spending.
-A democrat executive would increase the tax burden.
-A democrat president would reduce incentives to work through socializing programs."

Dispute the analogy all you want, but the ultimate point is this: such points were already a part of the debate that led up to the poll/election's turnouts. If these criticisms of a server wipe are true, let the people who voted for it sit with the consequences. Simply restating the minority position and ignoring the majority is senseless.

Except this isn't a democracy and never was. The devs ultimately are the final word decision-wise when it comes to TC. Want to make the decisions yourself, you need your own server. Your analogy = epic fail.

[Ekowraith]

Except this isn't a democracy and never was. The devs ultimately are the final word decision-wise when it comes to TC. Want to make the decisions yourself, you need your own server. Your analogy = epic fail.

Exactly. Your arguing that this has been undemocratic is quite possibly the best evidence that this process has been unfair.

But suppose a developer banned you because he disagreed with you politically. Would you then choose not to complain, due to the free nature of the SWGEmu? After all, you're entitled to nothing. But at the end of the day, we understand that unfair treatment is unfair treatment.

EDIT: Mistakenly wrote that Kraschman voted against the wipe.

[cable-odinson]

why on earth do a serious poll and act like SOE with the results.
come-on .................................................. ....

[Baigs]

Exactly. Your arguing that this has been undemocratic is quite possibly the best evidence that this process has been unfair.



You realize this is how you are acting?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpSfThUv_pc

[Kraschman]

Exactly. Your arguing that this has been undemocratic is quite possibly the best evidence that this process has been unfair.

But suppose a developer banned you because he disagreed with you politically. Would you then choose not to complain, due to the free nature of the SWGEmu? After all, you're entitled to nothing. But at the end of the day, we understand that unfair treatment is unfair treatment.

EDIT: Mistakenly wrote that Kraschman voted against the wipe.

Oh I could complain theoretically, but I'd have no power to actually change the result, so it's still moot.

We've playing in the dev's sandbox. We all know this. If we don't like it, we are free to go elsewhere or make our own server like ANH is doing. That's fair. I'm not a dev. I don't nor should I expect to have the same authority as a dev decision-wise. If I wanted it, I'd become a dev. That's fair.

Equality of opportunity does not imply equally of results. Just because everyone doesn't end up the same is not unfair. It's life.

Let's get back to playing and testing.

[Terian]

Ya know as just another player I realize my opinion means nothing. However I will state it anyways, It is a Test Center that we all play for free. The devs have taken ALOT of their time reworking, coding, debugging, hosting, helping, and trying to take part in this project. I know I also develop software. So I have an idea of what they are going through. All of the hostility towards them is unneeded If you want to ***** and complain.. About a game you play for free and do absolutely nothing to support.. Then in my opinion. You should just leave. /shrug

[safak]

Actually it was more of a "Oh geezuz, I'm arguing with helmet-wearing doorknob licker. I think I'm going to stop now."

There isn't much point into getting into a logical debate with someone insisting "... there is no other possible explanation."

I could have also gone with a picture of Morbo from Futurama yelling STATISTICS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY! to your grossly inaccurate 1-in-6 example with the dice roll, but I try to limit myself to 1 image macro per internet argument.


so i give you stats, facts, and numbers.

you give me funny cartoons and name calling.

you win..if we were all in the 3rd grade i guess.

[Kraschman]

so i give you stats, facts, and numbers.

you give me funny cartoons and name calling.

you win..if we were all in the 3rd grade i guess.

You can use statistics to "prove" anything.

Scientists used to use the same data to "prove" global COOLING they now use for global warming.

What you REALLY gave were stats, your interpretation of the facts based on limited info, and numbers. All well and good, assuming your interpretation is accurate that is.

[rirxaatoi]

Devs. . .you have a KNOWN credit dupe that you can take care of with a server wipe. A credit dupe that damages the entire community and you refuse to do it. . . . .someone help me out here I'm confused.

[Howlier]

More playing, Less crying.

[fixit6]

Let's get back to playing and testing.



99.99999999% of players here don't test.

New loot tables is great, but whats the point when there is a million OP weapons still around. You say "decay will solve that", which makes me laugh.

Yea maybe 2 years from now.

[fortunofiasco]

You realize this is how you are acting?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpSfThUv_pc

OMG :D I really needed this good laugh ! Thanks Baigs !

[Kraschman]

99.99999999% of players here don't test.

New loot tables is great, but whats the point when there is a million OP weapons still around. You say "decay will solve that", which makes me laugh.

Yea maybe 2 years from now.

I haven't said anything about decay.

[Van]

Wow 60 pages of mostly crap. You should make polls more often lol. I was for the wipe and removal of frogs. Giving folks easy options and easy gameplay = NGE. And I really don't blame the devs for this. This is why I look forward to a smaller server with a controlled, mature population.

[Baigs]

OMG :D I really needed this good laugh ! Thanks Baigs !

Glad to entertain

[Fierce]

I see, so the majority vote doesn't matter? What a shame.

GG meet u at ANH

[Alamar01]

/sigh The discussion was actually getting more mature and positive back on about page 56ish. Seriously people if you don't like the emu or the choices the dev team has made either choose to keep playing or leave. Don't post negative comments on here that bring down the community as a whole.

There are plenty of people here that just want to move forward, have fun, and focus on bettering this community. Please think about the community as a whole before you post.

Thanks for the updates cRush. I will enjoy the new loot table. Thank you all for your hard work.

[Davickk]

Well after all it is a test server, It needs to be wiped. I don't even want to bother playing on it again until it is. But that's my opinion and we're all entitled to our opinion. Im actually surprised they didn't just wipe it. Would have been much simpler.

[lilsmoke]

Well at least I can play again without thinking about the wipe


....The vast majority did vote to wipe, and it was your Idea.... did yall think everyone would be happy???

The majpority DID vote to wipe, i was happy nd excited but i guess the majority< 10 whiners

[Harsk]

You realize this is how you are acting?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpSfThUv_pc

I would have to disagree and say he is schooling you quite handily and in a very objective manner.

[Baigs]

I would have to disagree and say he is schooling you quite handily and in a very objective manner.

We agree to disagree then :)

[Mujahed]

That still doesn't change the fact that most players are NOT programmers and are not involved in coding. Your point is still moot.

I never said the majority are programmers. Don't put words into my mouth just because you just realised what a fool you were to ever question me.

[Valkyra]

I never said the majority are programmers. Don't put words into my mouth just because you just realised what a fool you were to ever question me.

He will learn in time not to question an real males.

[kevin']

damn, I was gonna come back and start testing again. I had stopped because the loot was ridiculous, whats the point of testing with gear being 10x better than what should be expected.

[ChixDigit]

61 pages already... what a fiasco.

[Bulbous]

Hey, wipers! I got a wipe for ya:

Click START > CONTROL PANEL > ADD/REMOVE PROGRAMS

[Kraschman]

He will learn in time not to question an real males.

Whatever a "an real males" is.

[Ekowraith]

Oh I could complain theoretically, but I'd have no power to actually change the result, so it's still moot.

I don't think we disagree then. It has been thoroughly demonstrated that the community lacks any real power - even when its opinion is solicited under that pretense, and even when ignoring the community perspective is clearly senseless and unjust.

[Kraschman]

I don't think we disagree then. It has been thoroughly demonstrated that the community lacks any real power - even when its opinion is solicited under that pretense, and even when ignoring the community perspective is clearly senseless and unjust.

I wouldn't agree that it's unjust. They're devs, we're not. If we want the same decision-making power, we should be devs ourselves. Just because have input on issues doesn't mean we ultimate make the choices. End of story.

[Kesorx]

I wouldn't agree that it's unjust. They're devs, we're not. If we want the same decision-making power, we should be devs ourselves. Just because have input on issues doesn't mean we ultimate make the choices. End of story.


But when they actually give us the option which they did..? Where does that come into play?

[Capo]

they are going to wipe when the OR comes out, so you will get your precious wipe then.
so QQ more, and get over it.

[Kraschman]

But when they actually give us the option which they did..? Where does that come into play?

They gave us the option to be involved in the decision-making process. The buck stops with them when it comes to the actual decision. That's as it should be. Being involved didn't mean we got to make the final decision.

[Kyrm347]

Wow, this place woke up.

I haven't been around much, not much for me to do on the server until OR is released (not much that I would enjoy doing that is).

A server wipe poll? Missed that.

To me it doesn't matter wipe or no wipe... Until the OR is finished 75% of what I would enjoy doing in SWGEmu doesn't exist yet.... so for me I look at at as I haven't been "born" yet.

Maybe someday. In the mean time please don't tear the roof down before the house is finished... thanks.

[alexiskool12345]

They gave us the option to be involved in the decision-making process. The buck stops with them when it comes to the actual decision. That's as it should be. Being involved didn't mean we got to make the final decision.
That worked out fantastic for SOE didn't it......

[Shadow2k]

That worked out fantastic for SOE didn't it......

Far as I can tell, SOE still runs SWG with a larger player base than the EMU has.

SOE was getting paid to provide you a service. See the difference?

[Skappato]

I voted for a wipe,anyway i'll continue to play as before (i would have done the same thing after a wipe too).

I trust the developers, i'm sure they will take the right decision for the future of the TC (as they did until now).

[RemusStarsider]

lulwut why say no to wipe... bad bad noobs thanks for ruining any chance of fun on nova iRmad!

[alexiskool12345]

Far as I can tell, SOE still runs SWG with a larger player base than the EMU has.

SOE was getting paid to provide you a service. See the difference?

As far as I can tell, Blizzard has a larger player base then every current pay to play MMO combined. See I can ignore points as well.

My point in my last post was that it is idiotic to continuously ignore the majority of your player base thinking you can do no wrong. Sure SOE may still be running SWG with enough people playing to get by, but it's obvious that by going against their fan base is why we are here today playing this emulation. Paying to play a game or it being free has nothing to do with anything. If you go against what the majority of your fan base wants time and time again, you will ultimately fail.

[BankyEdwards]

damn, I was gonna come back and start testing again. I had stopped because the loot was ridiculous, whats the point of testing with gear being 10x better than what should be expected.

amen brother. exactly how I feel.

[emeecai]

maybe the people crying about the wipe, should take note of the fact its a test server meant to find and eliminate bugs...they've screwed us over by leaving us all stuck with bugged code cause the developement team cant take a needed step without having their eyes bleed by a few cry babies.

[ni'kkor]

Whatever i'm sure there are good reasons although it is a bit dissapointing. Hopefully it did not come down to someone complaining who was a big donater. Have seen that many times before on other servers. Then again if they pay the bills, then Im thankful you kept them happy.

[Shadow2k]

As far as I can tell, Blizzard has a larger player base then every current pay to play MMO combined. See I can ignore points as well.

My point in my last post was that it is idiotic to continuously ignore the majority of your player base thinking you can do no wrong. Sure SOE may still be running SWG with enough people playing to get by, but it's obvious that by going against their fan base is why we are here today playing this emulation. Paying to play a game or it being free has nothing to do with anything. If you go against what the majority of your fan base wants time and time again, you will ultimately fail.

Did you read this thread?

They aren't ignoring you. They just don't agree with your outlook on what the server needs at this time. If you didn't read the posts from the Devs in this thread, I suggest you do so.

Look, community input is great. Every developer wants input into what the players think. But that doesn't mean they're always going to agree with you. And quite honestly, often times if they do listen, you don't get what you thought you were asking for anyway. Yes, you want a wipe, I get that. But the wipe comes with consequences too, and the Devs weren't willing to deal with those consequences at this time.

For the record, SOE did originally listen to their player base. How do you think the CU came about, anyway? People crying about mind dmg, 90% composite, stun dmg, Jedi being too strong/weak (yes, both at the same time), etc, etc... SOE listened to all those cries. The CU is what you got.

Then they stopped listening because of the constant crying was just too much. So they did what they wanted, and in comes the NGE.

What do you want, exactly? Pre-CU SWG? So do the Devs. I'm guessing that considering their the ones making it, perhaps we should let them walk their own path to get there. In the end, you'll get what you want. Just try a little patience.

[Adransus]

One could write a neat sociology or anthropology essay over dealings in this community. It is very very unique.

Hell why not a political science paper too?

[alexiskool12345]

Did you read this thread?

They aren't ignoring you. They just don't agree with your outlook on what the server needs at this time. If you didn't read the posts from the Devs in this thread, I suggest you do so.

Look, community input is great. Every developer wants input into what the players think. But that doesn't mean they're always going to agree with you. And quite honestly, often times if they do listen, you don't get what you thought you were asking for anyway. Yes, you want a wipe, I get that. But the wipe comes with consequences too, and the Devs weren't willing to deal with those consequences at this time.

For the record, SOE did originally listen to their player base. How do you think the CU came about, anyway? People crying about mind dmg, 90% composite, stun dmg, Jedi being too strong/weak (yes, both at the same time), etc, etc... SOE listened to all those cries. The CU is what you got.

Then they stopped listening because of the constant crying was just too much. So they did what they wanted, and in comes the NGE.

What do you want, exactly? Pre-CU SWG? So do the Devs. I'm guessing that considering their the ones making it, perhaps we should let them walk their own path to get there. In the end, you'll get what you want. Just try a little patience.
Oh I read it and find it absurd that they are saying the OR won't be out for another 5 months and that everyone is to just sit here, play on a dead code test center, and deal with broken pvp, duped weapons/items, beyond repairable economy, etc. etc.

If the TC was reset, actual testing could commence again with a revamped Jedi system, a fresh start for crafters, a fresh economy, pvp would be viable once again, etc. Instead we are left with a Test Center in which there is nothing to test and where the dupers can do whatever the hell they want. A revised loot system won't do anything to help.

[Kiora]

lock the thread. please. i'm begging here.

[ddraggonswingg74]

personally i dont care if there is or isnt a wipe.. im gunna play either way

[Metal]

lock the thread. please. i'm begging here.

I coudnt agree more.

[Daywolf]

maybe the people crying about the wipe, should take note of the fact its a test server meant to find and eliminate bugs...they've screwed us over by leaving us all stuck with bugged code cause the developement team cant take a needed step without having their eyes bleed by a few cry babies.
What testing? We are in a lame duck phase, where looking for or reporting bugs is rather pointless. Remember OR? They should not really be fixing bugs here at this point, other than anything really critical really. So wiping to start over for bug tracking is purely pointless.

When will this thread diiiiie?!?
heh

[Jatycre]

I feel I need to interject here. Too many people are coming off with the "There will be a wipe when the OR is finished" line. That's not gonna happen for a long while. It's not as if the OR is gonna be done in a few days or something. The OR isn't going to be done for months. The TC is going to be the ONLY way to play the galaxies we all love until then. Which is why it's bothering so many people that the TC is basically ruined as it sits. The economy is shot, and PVP is ruined. That is why so many people are complaining. It's a test server with nothing we can really test in it's current state. It's the only way to play Galaxies the way we enjoy it, but it's completely fooked. And without a wipe, it's staying fooked until the OR is done, which won't be for months. So stop acting as though people are complaining for nothing, there is a valid reason for the complaining. The OR isn't even close to finished, which means we have a broken server for months.

That being said, it's not fair at all to take it out on the devs either. The devs are working hard on this project. They wanted to help us out, but they also want to keep working on the OR. They thought they could make the time to wipe the server and fix a few problems, however when they actually sat down and looked at what was going to happen if they wiped it, they realized it was going to wind up taking too much time away from their main priority. They aren't pulling an SOE by any means. They are still doing what we want, and that is to crank out the code to get a finished product working. They just don't think they have the time to fix the TC right now. Which, from my point of view (which is someone with some programming experience) is understandable. I understand how much time it's taking them to bang out all this code, and I understand that they want that to be their top priority right now.

[obi2canobi]

LOL! Ok it's time to let go now!

It is dysfunctional to get so worked up over a video game, however it is worth some laughs.

I guarantee you if the OR was scheduled for release next week people would still be vehemently arguing for a wipe/no wipe on TC.

Life goes on...

[Daywolf]

Doesn't matter when the OR is finished, looking for bugs is still pointless. Of course things are broken, but less broken than when we used to play tag around anchorhead years ago.

In the end it's a no win for the devs, as wiping will not eliminate bugs for the most part. Then people will cry about that, trying to pull time and resources from OR development to fix things here that will just break again when the OR is released. The difference should be then that fixing the code/database should be quicker/easier.

As for this thread, as Starbuck said:
"DIE! JUST DIIIIIIIE!"
meh

[Worlack]

They wanted to help us out, but they also want to keep working on the OR. They thought they could make the time to wipe the server and fix a few problems, however when they actually sat down and looked at what was going to happen if they wiped it, they realized it was going to wind up taking too much time away from their main priority. They just don't think they have the time to fix the TC right now. I understand how much time it's taking them to bang out all this code, and I understand that they want that to be their top priority right now.

I agree with most of your post here, but where I've quoted is where you have it wrong. They stated repeatedly that a wipe of the TC would take away 1-2 days of OR work time. Personally I could live with that if it meant fixing the current problems with the TC. The reason they decided against the wipe wasn't due to taking time away from OR, it was due to disparities in the two polls, they didn't want to create a third poll and the community was very passionate on both sides of the argument. They decided to go with the status-quo here.

If they had come out and said "We don't want to devote time to Nova when we could be working on OR" I think a lot of people on both sides would have understood because I think most of us agree that the OR is a higher priority than our fun on the TC.

[Shadow2k]

Oh I read it and find it absurd that they are saying the OR won't be out for another 5 months and that everyone is to just sit here, play on a dead code test center, and deal with broken pvp, duped weapons/items, beyond repairable economy, etc. etc.

If the TC was reset, actual testing could commence again with a revamped Jedi system, a fresh start for crafters, a fresh economy, pvp would be viable once again, etc. Instead we are left with a Test Center in which there is nothing to test and where the dupers can do whatever the hell they want. A revised loot system won't do anything to help.

So the TC is dead code, yet...if you reset it, suddenly it needs a lot of testing? It is the same code, that makes no sense.

This wipe was all about instant gratification. People want to be able to insta-master any profession. People want everything reset so they can play and PvP right now, as if the project were finished. Guess what, it isn't. Don't toss out the word testing as if you mean it, it insults my intelligence.

The wipe had nothing to do the furthering the EMU project. If the devs needed a wipe to test stuff, they'd just do it. That's the last time I explain that.

I'm done posting in this thread. I don't think think I can stand anyone else trying to tell me a player ran economy needs to be tested.

[Worlack]

This wipe was all about instant gratification. People want to be able to insta-master any profession. People want everything reset so they can play and PvP right now, as if the project were finished.

Actually there were two options:

1. Wipe
2. Wipe with Frogs

I for one voted for Wipe without frogs, don't paint us all with the same brush. I quit WoW at WotLK release because the "instant gratification" aspect was out of control, I don't want to see that happen to SWG, even on test. The amount of experience gained right now is already absurd enough.

[alexiskool12345]

So the TC is dead code, yet...if you reset it, suddenly it needs a lot of testing? It is the same code, that makes no sense.

This wipe was all about instant gratification. People want to be able to insta-master any profession. People want everything reset so they can play and PvP right now, as if the project were finished. Guess what, it isn't. Don't toss out the word testing as if you mean it, it insults my intelligence.

The wipe had nothing to do the furthering the EMU project. If the devs needed a wipe to test stuff, they'd just do it. That's the last time I explain that.

I'm done posting in this thread. I don't think think I can stand anyone else trying to tell me a player ran economy needs to be tested.
I voted no without the ridiculous frogs. If you seriously believe nothing could be tested with a reset then that's your problem. They decided not to do a reset with the only viable excuse being the frogs (which never should have been an option) and that they once again catered to the crying minority of the player base who didn't want to lose their precious Jedi's, not that nothing could be tested (a revamped Jedi system for example).

[Daywolf]

If you seriously believe nothing could be tested with a reset then that's your problem. Test for what? I still don't see any point in it, even posting bug reports now can only slow them down with other things. Dead code is dead code.

Really, the server does not even need to be up. It's only up so those that have been testing can just play to pass the time until they reach the next development milestone. That's just how things work with such projects, been there done that plenty of times from both sides of the fence.

[OldJedi]

i dont understand this wipe, havent been around for a long time.


so there will be no wipe when this game goes live ?

is this right ?

[Worlack]

When the game goes live (a LONG time from now) it will be wiped. It will also be wiped sometime in the coming months for something called the object restructure.

[Daywolf]

i dont understand this wipe, havent been around for a long time.


so there will be no wipe when this game goes live ?

is this right ?After? Shouldn't. But TC will get it at least two more times, probably more.
To clarify, TC will be ended, so there will be no "wipe" at that point. Theoretically or physically, not the same server. I can only imagine a wipe from that point on would be from a fatal crash, and all the backups were eaten by a rabid Cu-pa.

[Vlada]

i dont understand this wipe, havent been around for a long time.


so there will be no wipe when this game goes live ?

is this right ?

There will be many wipes between now and then. After the OR is complete (OR=Object Restructure, look for reference in my signature), NOVA will be wiped and testing of the new code will commence. We will more than likely have quite a few wipes after the OR and before the launch of SC (SunCrusher).

[Stinney]

Oh I read it and find it absurd that they are saying the OR won't be out for another 5 months

Unless I missed some news, the OR was originally expected to be complete August '09.

Where did you get 5 months from?

[Vlada]

Unless I missed some news, the OR was originally expected to be complete August '09.

Where did you get 5 months from?

cRush posted that, but he also said its not an actual ETA only his rough estimate.

[Worlack]

It was originally estimated August 2009. I think it was later estimated to be late 2009 and Suncrusher was actually slated for 2009. Check www.suncrusher.net as it STILL says 2009. I think most people were thinking sometime this summer for OR, but cRush stated in this thread that it's looking like (estimated) 5 months now. That puts it at October 2010.

My personal guess,
OR = 2011
Suncrusher = Fall 2011


Edit: I know there is no confirmed ETA for anything and to assume an ETA from any information from any source would be ridiculous.

[Ekaika]

I'm gonna go ahead and lol again. And only for the simple reason that I marvel at the overt hilarious reaction by the horde from each and every development.

You guys should cool down...as fun as it is to go ape**** on a forum, it's not entirely productive, as said forum is inhabited by sheep who sometimes follow the loudest whistle.

[Velninieks]

As far as I understand(I'm actually playing SWG only a week or so) the problem was duping, why not wipe only items that were used by bugs the most?

[Arnold47525]

Hey, wipers! I got a wipe for ya:

Click START > CONTROL PANEL > ADD/REMOVE PROGRAMS

I'd be pleased to meet you ingame. I like your atitude and sense of humor. :D

[Khargash]

You guys should cool down...as fun as it is to go ape**** on a forum, it's not entirely productive, as said forum is inhabited by sheep who sometimes follow the loudest whistle.

As oppose to sheep who follow the quietest whistle? (i.e. follow the group with the least votes). What do you call those type of sheep?

What a ridiculous waste of time and hope. And there was me thinking this might actually get me back on TC for some proper fun - at least for a few weeks until the next bunch of exploits are discovered.

[Arnold47525]

maybe the people crying about the wipe, should take note of the fact its a test server meant to find and eliminate bugs...they've screwed us over by leaving us all stuck with bugged code cause the developement team cant take a needed step without having their eyes bleed by a few cry babies.

Wrong thoughts here, Emeecai. Not the Devs screwed you here, it was the foul palyers inside this "community" who did. You blame the wrong people here.

[Elvaron]

On the OR: It is very hard to say. Currently there's like a hand full or more devs actively working on the code, but in summer, when some of them get to have more free time, it'll proceed faster. I'm not going to give an ETA, but I think the ETA for a realistic ETA is fall 2010, by then many things will be done :)

[qwwq4]

You people also need to understand something: cRush said if it continues as it is now it will be 5 months. School is still in. wait 2-3 weeks and the devs have more free time. So more things get done.

If code is dead ( so testing is "pointless"), and the OR is 5 months out, the only logical explanation I can see here would be to join the Dev team to help out. the Team is a "Freelance" basis, as in they accept fixes and code submissions, as it is open source. ANYONE who knows what they are doing can submit code and join the dev team. Out of the insane number of people here, you can't tell me that only the number of people on the dev team already are all of the people who know how to code? that is absurd. Join the dev team. code. ???? Profit.

[Mujahed]

You people also need to understand something: cRush said if it continues as it is now it will be 5 months. School is still in. wait 2-3 weeks and the devs have more free time. So more things get done.

If code is dead ( so testing is "pointless"), and the OR is 5 months out, the only logical explanation I can see here would be to join the Dev team to help out. the Team is a "Freelance" basis, as in they accept fixes and code submissions, as it is open source. ANYONE who knows what they are doing can submit code and join the dev team. Out of the insane number of people here, you can't tell me that only the number of people on the dev team already are all of the people who know how to code? that is absurd. Join the dev team. code. ???? Profit.

I'm sure they'll spend their sunny days in a dark basement.

[Daywolf]

On the OR: It is very hard to say. Currently there's like a hand full or more devs actively working on the code, but in summer, when some of them get to have more free time, it'll proceed faster. I'm not going to give an ETA, but I think the ETA for a realistic ETA is fall 2010, by then many things will be done :)
What, are they in middle-school or something? hehe. Adults are usually extra busy in the summer time... depending on which part of the world they live in ;)
That usually includes college students too. I actually took classes in summer when I was in college... while I was working... and on my putter... and out doing daily stuff.

[heavyassault]

At the end of the day when the real server comes up we are going to have to start a new! I actually wanted the wipe because it would be fun! and its only a Test server! thats my personal opinion :)

[Worlack]

Oh lord, why'd you have to post that screenshot, you trying to make people puke?

[Vlada]

I think that's his signature, LMAO.

[Worlack]

I think that's his signature lol.

Brb, head in the toilet!

[Arnold47525]

Brb, head in the toilet!

Drinking water, couldn't you just take a glass like anyone else?
Oh, I got it, you're a Wookie. :D

[Kainzo]

What testing? We are in a lame duck phase, where looking for or reporting bugs is rather pointless. Remember OR? They should not really be fixing bugs here at this point, other than anything really critical really. So wiping to start over for bug tracking is purely pointless.

When will this thread diiiiie?!?
heh

When you stop posting :p

[pie eater]

The thread will die once the DEVs see how many ungrateful people they have in the community of this EMU. Really come on I think all of the posters here need to apologize they are the ones who brought this game back for us. Who else can code this game like them? The fact they are doing it for free is astonishing.

Thank you EMU team in the long run this decision and all your other decisions wil benefit us all.

[Thebabylonking]

This is just a late April fools joke from SOE right?.....or is it........

[barbercat]

I agree yes thank you very much DEV Team.

[Kraschman]

That worked out fantastic for SOE didn't it......

I understand where you're coming from. But if you have a million chiefs and no Indians that works out even less well. At least we got a voice, unlike with SOE.

When it comes down to it, Orwell was right. We are all equal, but some are more equal than others. And it won't work any other way.

[Kraschman]

Far as I can tell, SOE still runs SWG with a larger player base than the EMU has.

SOE was getting paid to provide you a service. See the difference?

True, in fact SOE has even more obligation to provide players with a voice since those players are paying for the service, unlike the EMU.

But instead we got a voice here, and not there.

And people are complaining... go figure.

[BankyEdwards]

and for the record SOE did NOT listen to the community with the CU. They WERE listening when they started to design the CURB. Then they stopped listening and changed the CURB to the CU. which were two completely different ways at balancing the game.

(ADK's didn't help any before CU either)

[Kraschman]

and for the record SOE did NOT listen to the community with the CU. They WERE listening when they started to design the CURB. Then they stopped listening and changed the CURB to the CU. which were two completely different ways at balancing the game.

(ADK's didn't help any before CU either)

Exactly...

[Daywolf]

When you stop posting :pRiiiight, noob. Welcome to SWGemu, where the worm never dies ;)

[Omegataco]

When the hell is thread going to be closed? Doing harm and nothing more.

[qwwq4]

What, are they in middle-school or something? hehe. Adults are usually extra busy in the summer time... depending on which part of the world they live in ;)
That usually includes college students too. I actually took classes in summer when I was in college... while I was working... and on my putter... and out doing daily stuff.

it even says on the assembla page things should pick up during the summer (http://www.assembla.com/spaces/swgemu/milestones/68581-sun-crusher-launch-(subject-to-delay))

[el.zwierzakko]

I don't get what all the fuss is about. You guys need to understand that a wipe is the Devs decision not yours. Whining will not help. Just enjoy the game and wait for progress. There will be more than one wipe along the way.

[Diehomey!]

C'mon guys we're almost to 1000! If everyone in this thread QQ's one more time we'll reach that goal!

[Yhor]

Pointless discussion is pointless.

Move along, this wasn't the thread we were looking for...

[Stinney]

Its possible the decision NOT to DB wipe was economic as much as anything else.
I missed the results, so I dont know the exact results, but if people are donating, and would potentially STOP donating if the DB was wiped, then it would be damaging to their server operating costs.

[_Pi_]

Last message from Tiggs
This is believed to be a post by Tiggs using an allias not long before she dissapeared and the post itself was removed in minutes of it been posted, but as always we have our fast fingered copy paste trolls to thank for its preservation....... you draw your own conclusions.

For any of you that were around since this game's launch, thing back to November 2003. Two years ago this month SOE introduced vehicles and player cities to SWG. This was a very exciting time, and arguably the pinnacle of this game's existence.

The day the player city and vehicle publish was to go live was very intense. There was a lot of excitement. Many of us were on the old Gorath Imperial IRC server talking about grand plans, wishing each other luck on getting our spots. Many had architects lined up to make city halls. A lot of us had our would-be mayors logged out right by where the politician trainer would be located when the server came up. A LOT of people did not go to work or school that day hehe.

Player cities actually came to define this game early on. It gave guild's a sense of pride and ownership. It gave folks places to gather. Gave us territories to defend/assault. This gave us rise to the GCW and the massive PvP that ensued.

But while all this was going on, there were many underlying problems that were creeping up on us slowly. See the game had only been out for a few months. People had not fully realized to what extent things could be crafted. We had not had many good resource spawns, and not substantial quantities either. Almost no crafters had any experimentation tapes, nor did they fully understand how the intricacies of the crafting system worked.

But over the next couple of months, people realized they could make armor that would resist 90%+ all damage. Or that they could make MIND poison that would kill everyone within a 30 yard radius in three ticks. Or they could make buffs that would more than DOUBLE our stats.

These were all items that for some reason or another were never capped before the game went live as they should have. This was a direct result of SOE's short-sightedness. They underestimated the resourcefulness of their player base.

Combine those factors with bugs and exploits (faction bases had MANY that took MONTHS to patch), unbalanced classes (TKA, CM, Rifleman) and eventually the revelation of HOW to unlock Jedi (effectively taking a huge part of the player base OUT of the game as they pursued the grind) - and you had the begining of the decline.

Before all this, the GCW was super addictive and I would say in November 2003 the majority of players were actively involved somehow. Not sure how many remember the battles at Maelstrom that went on for over 8 hours. Only reason it ended was because people had to leave to go to work or school lol. The game was FUN and MUCH more addictive then. Faction meant something. We had a LOT less faction hopping back then because the war was in full swing.

Well, the game kept deteriorating so SOE came up with the plan to fix it - originally called the Combat Revamp, later to be known as the Combat Upgrade. I was one who was privy to a LOT of the early documentation on the first CU. Let me first point out that the CU that did go live that you all call CU 1 is actually CU 2. There was another version of the CU prior to what you saw that IMHO was MUCH better, but for some reason or another they took it upon themselves to redo the CU before it even went live.

But the CU 1 that I was shown was the game I wanted. It was basically the same game we all loved, but solved the long-standing problems that revealed themselves since launch. Being able to target the mind pool was no longer going to be an advantage for only a handful of professions - each profession was going to get a move to be able to target each of the three pools. Weapons, armor, buffs, foods & drinks were all going to be capped. DOT's were going to be nerfed so hard they were going to be a nuissance, but not make or break in combat. Mind pool was going to finally be healable. We still had the same graphics and toolbars - none of the cartoony stuff that I think really was a distraction. We also still had Jedi which arguably was the biggest flaw of the game.

Not sure why - perhaps too much playing WoW and not focusing on their own unique game - but they scrapped all of CU 1 and ended up pushing out what you have now.

But now - now we have the NGW. There are SO many things I find wrong with this I do not even know where to begin.

First off, SWG never has been known as having a substantial amount of content. To be honest, I think that half the content in this game WAS the professions - being able to build a unique character template for YOU. Bored of tailor? Try droid engineer. Bored of pistoleer? Try carbineer.

Now I see these nine classes folks will be pigeon-holed into and I think that SOE just took it's BIGGEST strength for this game and turned it into a weakness. Character classes in SWG will now have even less diversity than WoW because in WoW at least they have the talent system to offer some diversity within a class.

Sure, this will be easier for them to balance, and easier for players without a clue, but it seems to me that this is a cop out and a slap in the face to anyone who has been loyal to SOE through it all.

I am sure the NGE will be fun for a little while, but unless SOE plans on adding a LOT of content, the NGE will become boring FAST.

Where did SOE go wrong over the past few years? Well here is a quick list of major issues that they either never addressed or took too long to address or just flat out screwed up:

- Mind Pool
Making the ONE unhealable pool explicitly targetable by only a few classes automatically made some classes better than others.

-No Caps
Having no upper-limit caps on DOT's, buffs, food&drinks, armor effectiveness, weapons, etc allowed for game-breaking items to be crafted. Had there been better testing in beta with MAX resources they would have discovered this before the game even went live.

-Jedi
Making an alpha class in an MMORPG is always going to be a failure. Who would NOT want to play the dominant class? Nerfing Jedi was wrong too. We want Jedi to be like canon and strong. SOE should have NEVER allowed player Jedi. To my understanding this was a HUGE internal debate before the game went live, with LucasArts weighing in to push Jedi. BIG mistake. Fact is the game had MORE paying subscribers before there were Jedi. Fact - after DOT's (often pointed out by Jedi as the true death of the game) the game had even LESS subscribers. I hardly think all those people quit because DOT's were nerfed Point? People got sick of Jedi, and sick of seeing more and more of them. Less diversity among players = less fun. When SOE devoted two huge publishes all to Jedi instead of fixing other long-standing issues this was a sign of things to come. And the original holo-grind killed off a LOT of the PvP we had since so many became reclusive and devoted all their time to grinding.

-GCW bugs/exploits
Once people discovered that you can shoot through walls of player bases from the inside out but not outside in things went downhill. Once people discovered you could abort a base countdown even while DEAD of feigning death it was game over. How long did it take for SOE to fix this bug? FOUR months. What about people being able to attack turrets from out of range? SIX months. It was not like these were secret tricks either. They were well documented on the forums. For some reason though, they were extremly slow to respond. Instead of spending eight hours fighting back and forth between cities, people just got rid of their bases and the GCW died. With it PvP died off in a big way.

-Content
At one point they promised us new PvE content every other patch. Well, we got the corvette (which was a BLAST for about 3 weeks) and the Geonosian cave (which was so bugged it became a favorite place for grinders) and eventually the DWB which was the most challenging and fun, but then it was not until the expansion that the game actually got additional PvE content.

-Wasted Space
Land area in SWG is immense. If you did the math and figured it out and compared it to any other MMORPG out there SWG has MORE explorable space than any other game by far. But you know what? It is USELESS. Take Talus for example. Big beautiful planet with NOTHING on it. We have these little mini-dungeons, or doodads on each planet that serve minimal to no purpose at all. What is their answer? In the expansions they actually have invisible fencing to keep you in the few areas they actually have content. Instead of having the whole huge area filled with stuff of use, they close off areas to the player. This is an area where SOE could learn a LOT from WoW where all the land is not only explorable, but most of it serves a purpose and/or has unique mobs.

-Character customization
SOE made characters so customizable that this actually becomes one of it's biggest weaknesses. The more unique features the game has to track, the more queries clients have to make to the server in order to properly render a toon on your screen. 20 players no problem. 50 players? Slowdown time. 200 players? Server go kaboom. Too much load for the system to handle. Basically epic battles become near impossible.

Thinking about all of this it seems to me that in SOE's rush to get product to market in the first place they dropped the ball bad, and instead of making things better, they constantly seem to make the wrong decisions.

Stop f'ing around with focus groups, and fire the marketing suits and hire some good, competent developers and people with vision. Unfortunately at this point I think it is too late. No one trusts you anymore SOE and their experiences here WILL likely make them think twice about trying other SOE games. I know for myself I will NEVER play another SOE title.

Sincerely,

Someone who loved what once was,

Tiggs

*dejavu*

[Voave]

*dejavu*

really ur gonna compare tiggs last post to this???
usir /fail

[Fierce]

I'm gonna go ahead and lol again. And only for the simple reason that I marvel at the overt hilarious reaction by the horde from each and every development.

You guys should cool down...as fun as it is to go ape**** on a forum, it's not entirely productive, as said forum is inhabited by sheep who sometimes follow the loudest whistle.

thank you for stepping down, im 100% sure it will benefit the entire project almost instantly.

[alexiskool12345]

thank you for stepping down, im 100% sure it will benefit the entire project almost instantly.
lmao :D

[tonkatuff]

Pi, you are a downie. Pure and simple. How in the WORLD could you compare that to this? This is a test center which wont even exist in 4-5 months. The developers are making incredible strides. One of the devs is a roomate of mine. I see his work on the OR constantly. A lot of you don't understand the hours put in to this game... free , non billable, 110% voluntary hours.

Get a grip you damned losers.

[\/icious]

Im certainly not going to read 60+ pages of arguing and *****ing but it seems to me a whole **** load of people forgot this thing is free and is a Test center. Some of you people *****ing and moaning need to get a life.

[BankyEdwards]

well maybe you should read what the core issue was. the devs asked us to vote TWICE and we did. Both times favoring wipe by over 2/3 majority. then the devs decided not to do it. which is all fine and dandy free server blah blah blah and all. BUT there are valid points that them asking us for our input then ignoring it is very SOE'ish. Especially since they seemed to have listened to that minority that *****ed and whined and not the majority that would have liked to start fresh and test/play without the remnants of all those past bugs/exploits still present on server. Which was the point to the polls after all.

[o0Syn]

I'm with Vicious and Tonka on this one.

I loved SWG beta tested SWG and we had a wipe sure i was a bit disappointed but I got over it. Wipe or no wipe I wont be angry and that's how everyone here should feel. These people are dedicating a lot of their free time to resurrect this once beautiful game! Some of these people are I'm sure very busy and have families so quit all the whining and ****!

Please just remember these guys aren't being paid for this and this is all out of the good of star wars lets takes some lessons from our favorite film and not all fall to the darkside here, were all on this boat together lets make it sail fast and straight forward.

Hats off to the people of SWGemu, Thank you for doing what you are doing and don't listen to the trollers we all appreciate your work just not all of us have such an easy time saying such things. People get caught up in their selfishness quite easy.

Above all remember this is a FEKING GAME! Don't be angry and troll the people that work to bring us something we all want. Just have fun that's the point of games right?

[Worlack]

I love how anyone that doesn't agree with you is a troll/troller. Man, that term is thrown around more than QQ or lol these days.


That said, this does need to die. Sure I'm disappointed that we have to stick with a broken economy and duped items/credits (with nothing to prevent further dupes/dupers) for at least five months.

Personally I'm just going to hang out and try to enjoy it for a while longer and then just play something else. I really just wanted something to do in the game again, a clean slate, no jacked up economy and the thrill of starting anew. A lot of people didn't want that and, in the end, I respect their opinion.

[cable-odinson]

whipe it and start again DEVS !

[Kainzo]

Pi, you are a downie. Pure and simple. How in the WORLD could you compare that to this? This is a test center which wont even exist in 4-5 months. The developers are making incredible strides. One of the devs is a roomate of mine. I see his work on the OR constantly. A lot of you don't understand the hours put in to this game... free , non billable, 110% voluntary hours.

Get a grip you damned losers.

My friend's cousin's roommate's brother's sister's son is also part of the dev team, and he says he doesn't know your roommate.

Dear lord man.

Though on a side note, it is kick ass what the developers are doing for the SWG project! Keep it up!

[ae77guy]

"Wipe them out. All of them."
―Darth Sidious

I agree with Sidious!!!

[\/icious]

well maybe you should read what the core issue was. the devs asked us to vote TWICE and we did. Both times favoring wipe by over 2/3 majority. then the devs decided not to do it. which is all fine and dandy free server blah blah blah and all. BUT there are valid points that them asking us for our input then ignoring it is very SOE'ish. Especially since they seemed to have listened to that minority that *****ed and whined and not the majority that would have liked to start fresh and test/play without the remnants of all those past bugs/exploits still present on server. Which was the point to the polls after all.i did and while a would prefer a wipe its not costing me anything so if they listen fine and if they dont then i can deal with it or move on til the final release but all these people complaining up a storm are going to be the same people on suncrusher the day of its opening happy as hell even thought they *****ed half the way there. No appreciation

[Nolcro]

I wonder if these forums will ever be clean of this drama. Though, as history has shown, the developers here evidently crave it so I doubt it.

For future reference to everyone here that are shocked at the outcome (of both the developers and the community), expect a lot more down the road. It's happened before, it'll happen again.

That's all I had to say on this so I will now return to my place at home.
/bo tran TG

[o0Syn]

I love how anyone that doesn't agree with you is a troll/troller. Man, that term is thrown around more than QQ or lol these days.


from wiki:
a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community

I think it applies they are being inflammatory to a topic that is stupid just let the devs do what they need to do to give us the best playing experience.

Like I said wipe or not I don't care I have no opinion!

You can't stop sploiters or dupers even with a fix there will still be a way to do it somehow. People always find ways to cheat

the end i am done here

[Unregistered]

When the hell is thread going to be closed? Doing harm and nothing more.

no staff has posted anything that needs backtracked, closed and deleted to cover the tracks on like before

till then...

[dizmull]

cant we all just get along

[Ninja]

cant we just let this frikken die already? get over it!